Cuprisin: 12, 4 on TWC for a microscopic audience

[Tom Snyder]

JSOnline: Nov 12

THE PACE QUICKENS: Channel 12's high-definition programming will start appearing Monday on Time Warner Cable's Channel 512.

Channel 4 becomes the first local commercial station to have its high-definition signal carried by southeast Wisconsin's cable giant on Friday, as Channel 504.

And there's the beginning of an audience. Time Warner has distributed 1,983 high-definition cable boxes. Assuming one box per high-def cable customer, these programs currently are available to less than a quarter of 1% of the Milwaukee TV market.

That's the first measure of high-def viewing among southeast Wisconsin's 860,350 TV households

[Kevin Arnold]

Ironically that means than the registered membership here of about 200+ is a 10% sample of a provable HD audience. So the rant and ravings, boquets and roses here are very representative of what HD people think. And for advertisers, hmmmmm, upscale, enlightened, proven big ticket purchasers, vocal and not afraid to give feedback. What a demographic. If I'm a Flanners, Best Buy, or Circuit City I should look at specific ads on the digital only channels for accessories or upgrades. It cheap and about as targeted as you can get.

[Tom Snyder]

We really need to figure out the breakdown of our 227 people... how many TWC and how many Satellite and/or OTA. The assumption here is that everyone who watches HD gets it from cable.

My guess is that it's closer to 25% of the folks here... and with that math, the number of HDTV owners would be closer to 8-9,000. And that makes it closer to 1% share. Still not big, but something to build on...

[kjnorman]

Channel 12 on Monday? That's pretty cool, but shame it is not Sunday so I could get to watch Alias in HD....

As for the number of HD cable boxes, I was wondering if we would be able to get that number. It clearly gives an indication of the current potential market.

However, one also has to factor in that TW to date has only issued a HD box if a customer subscribes to one of the premium HBO or Showtime channels. I would predict that there are many out there that do not want to get the premium channels but would like to see the local channels in HD.

Also TW currently has not been promoting its HD boxes actively. This may be that they do not have to many of them. However, with the word out that locals (at least for now WISN and WTMJ) are in HD, I would therefore expect the uptake of the HD cable boxes to grow rapidly.

Kerry

[This message has been edited by kjnorman (edited 11-13-2002).]

[Ron Pollitt]

I agree with Tom's assessment. I am located just outside of TW's territory (next town over) and I can only pick up the local HDTV channels over the air.
As disappointed as some of you have been with TW, imagine how you would feel with Charter Communications (my carrier) who responded to my inquiry with a curt message that they don't have to provide HDTV till 2006. I am starting to lobby the local politicians about change....slow process.
Ron


------------------
SensoryScience HDT100 STB
NEC 42" Plasma Monitor
Lance 4-bowtieUHF Antenna
C/M UHF Preamp 7555
C/M Rotor with remote
Charter Cable(no HDTV)

[mr_yeti]

I have yet to purchase an OTA HD receiver, and am becoming more reluctant to do so with this new information. Does anyone have any opinions regarding the quality of TW's HD signal? If I can avoid the reception issues altogether and just get these channels piped into my home directly, I may be willing to pay for the rental of TW's box. Please, any thoughts at all on this would be both welcome and appreciated.

Also, about the quality of the box. How functional is it? I would hope it has component video outs? Anyone have any idea how much one costs to rent monthly? I think I've heard $10, but I may be wrong. And the channels available (or soon to be available) are what?

[This message has been edited by mr_yeti (edited 11-13-2002).]

[Tom Snyder]

I had one for about 2 days, and my issue wasn't with the HD picture quality, it was for the picture quality of the non-HD stuff.. weather channel, Fox News, all looked so crappy compared to DirecTV that even my wife couldn't watch it.

I could see no real difference between TW HD HBO and DirecTV HD HBO, or TW vs OTA Channel 10 digital..

[AndrewP]

There is a difference between TW and Dish Network HD.
1. I agree with Tom about HD picture quality.
2. non HD TW picture is very pure.
3. TW does not have OTA tuner.
4. TW does not have 5.1 DD sound. Dish Network delivers sound in 100% quality.

Andrew

[mr_yeti]

Tom,

What is your setup like? I currently have good old-fashioned analog cable (the most abused retronym ever, considering what digital cable isn't)and the picture quality, while hardly outstanding, is watchable at least. Not that "digital" cable would be an improvement over what i have now, but i would hardly think i would experience a worse picture. I shouldn't assume, though. Maybe I'll give it a try and see what I think. If I'm not happy with it I can always give them a call and tell them where to put their box.

[mr_yeti]

So, first of all, I am now a "senior member." Does this mean I have posted 15 times?

Is TW incapable of sending DD 5.1 signals, or are they just not willing to?

What do you mean by saying that non-HD TW signals are "pure?" No artifacts?

Thanks, guys.

[kjnorman]

Originally posted by AndrewP:
There is a difference between TW and Dish Network HD.
1. I agree with Tom about HD picture quality.
2. non HD TW picture is very pure.
3. TW does not have OTA tuner.
4. TW does not have 5.1 DD sound. Dish Network delivers sound in 100% quality.

Andrew

I think (2) should be very poor, not "pure" which implies it is quite good - which it clearly is not. http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/ubb/wink.gif

However for (4), I must say that I can get 5.1 sound from TW. Mostly on films, but even on channels like Speed Vision I have picked up 5.1 surround.

I am presumming that I will get 5.1 from WISN-DT on Monday aswell. I will let you know when I get it.

Kerry

[mr_yeti]

So who makes the boxes for TW, and what kind of outputs do they offer?

I would imagine that video component outs would be standard, but what about audio? Coaxial? Optical? Both?

[Joseph S]

I get DD 5.1 from TimeWarner HBO and Showtime HD. We shall see what happens with ABC but I do get DD from OTA and did also from channel 4's winter olympics. The cable seems to have taken the place of a second STB for the moment while I decide upon making the move towards a second HiPix and/or DVHS. There's too much good HD at the same time now. Sundays and Thursday's are a mess.

[kjnorman]

Yes Mr Yeti, now you have posted over 15 times, entitles you to the wonderful title of "old fart!" as we English like to say http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/ubb/smile.gif

The box that Time Warner offers for their HD services is the Scientific Atlanta 3100HD.

This box as coaxial (and I think optical) outputs. I use the Coaxial into my amp. It also has analog audio outs and you have to plug these into your amp as well. The reason is that all channels below 100 are still analog and the box will not convert the sound to digital to allow you to use one connection. Hence you get analog sound only below 100, and analog (not very good) or digital sound (much much better) above 100.

For video, there is composite (why bother), s-video and component outputs. To get the high def picture you will need to use the component outputs. Ths box will scale all non hi-def programming to 1080i. I presume it will also scale WISN's 720p output to 1080i (unless TW themselves do this which I doubt) as the box can not output native 720p.

You have no aspect ratio control of the 1080i component outputs so a standard def letterboxed program like The West Wing will be displayed with black borders all around. Normal 4:3 progamming is displayed pillarboxed and is slightlt stretched but is not too bad. True HDTV is widescreen through and through.

If you run the s-video output to you TV, then you can get all non HDTV channels and use your TV's internal scaling/aspect ratio control to control the picture. The 3100HD will not downrez the HDTV image to NTSC to allow recording from the s-video output. This is a shame as I would prefer a standard def recording of a clean HDTV image than a poor analog one (for example recording Alias) but alas it can not be done with this box.

Kerry

[mr_yeti]

Alright, let's see if I've got it right.
This Scientific Atlanta box will require two audio inputs for my receiver, one analog and one digital. I would prefer to use the optical option, since I only have two digital inputs into my (in need of a replacement) receiver, and I use the coaxial input for my DVD player. Will TWC supply the necessary toslink cable, or will I have to get my own? I find it hard to imagine that they have a lot of those sitting around on their trucks.

Also, this box will take up one component video input on my telly (a nod to my new friend from the isles), and if I want to stretch the analog picture, a second S-Video input as well. Otherwise, all channels below 100 will be in that horrible 4:3 (read: unwatchable) format. Am I correct in my understanding that my TV will not stretch this signal? This means that I'll have to switch inputs when I want to switch between standard definition programming and HD stuff. That's a bit annoying, but I can deal with it if I have to.

Thanks for all the great feedback, guys. Makes me proud to call myself a senior member (old fart, even though I don't necessarily think of myself as old). Verbose, perhaps, but not old.

[Tom Snyder]

Tom,

What is your setup like?


Our subdivision is fairly new, and had been wired for digital cable. Brand new house so all new cable all the way out to the box at the lot line and throughout the house. I had actually been a DirecTV subscriber at my old place, and I was pretty happy with it, and the fact that my RCA DTC-100 got me the locals (just 4 and 10 at the time) so I didn't need TW Digital Cable for HD. But I needed RoadRunner, and I had so I figured I'd give the TW HD box a try. My above observations were based on on the trial.. which only last about 2 days.

My set is only a Toshiba 40inch 16:9 RPTV, and if the non-hd picture quality was that awful on a msaller set, I could only imagine what it would be like on larger set!

[beirnead]

I currently have the TW HD box hooked up to my Toshiba 50" 16x9 Cinema Series. One of my biggest concerns with getting this type of television was the picture quality with a non digital cable source. I must say that the non digital and non HD cable looks quite good on the TV.

Like Tom, I also live in a new subdivision with all new wiring, so that may have something to do with the good signal.

I also have received DD5.1 from TW through this box. I mostly remember it coming on during certain movies on HBO and Cinemax.

[mr_yeti]

I have heard some pretty widely varied opinions on digital cable displayed on televisions designed to display much higher resolutions. I personally have a 47" Panasonic RPTV, and I just plug the coax right into the back of it, and I'm OK with the picture quality on most of the channels. Not thrilled, mind you, just OK with it. So I imagine if I can live with that now, the TWC route might be a good way to go for me. Maybe I'm the only one who has experienced this http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/ubb/wink.gif but my significant other is none too thrilled at the prospect of spending $350+ on an STB just to, as she puts it "Watch the Super Bowl."

I understand that the box rental, in time, will cost far more than buying a box now, but I think she is more willing to accept what she would see as a "slow bleed" for now, as compared to the "massive hemmorage" of dropping that money all at once. Plus, I can always terminate the cable and buy a DirecTV box when that becomes a little more cost-neutral.

I'll shut up now.

[This message has been edited by mr_yeti (edited 11-13-2002).]

[kjnorman]

Mr Yeti,

You will have to supply your own toslink cable - TW only supply component leads. As to if it does have optical I will double check when I get home tonight.

..on my telly (a nod to my new friend from the isles)

Ahhh, that reminds me of the old homeland. Funny, my wife talked me out of using the term telly (used to use it all the time) as she said no one over here would understand it. http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/ubb/wink.gif

I find the analog picture is watchable but it is not great. I am watching on a toshiba 50HX81, which when I bought it have one of the strongest scalers and picture quality out there. It does a good job with analog pictures (like Beirnead). When I feed the telly a good standard def digital picture (like HBO) then the PQ looks very good.

However this is all relative, as the digital standard definition widescreen PAL TV I used to get in the UK before I moved here (in 2000), though by no means HDTV, would still serious embarrass any non HD digital picture I currently get. Also I compromise my signal a bit by feeding most stuff throught a TiVo which rolls of some of the noise (resolution?) in the picture. Anyway I am drifting off topic....

Maybe I'm the only one who has experienced this but my significant other is none too thrilled at the prospect of spending $350+ on an STB just to, as she puts it "Watch the Super Bowl."
I understand that the box rental, in time, will cost far more than buying a box now, but I think she is more willing to accept what she would see as a "slow bleed" for now, as compared to the "massive hemmorage" of dropping that money all at once. Plus, I can always terminate the cable and buy a DirecTV box when that becomes a little more cost-neutral.

I am in the same boat! The only way I have go HDTV now is by "sneaking" it in with digital cable. Personally I am not thrilled with cable and would love to change, but technology is still not mature enough for me to have confidence to go out and spend big bucks on new euipment - plus my wife will not let me.

As I said, we are a Tivo household, and so we will not buy any new hardward until we can record HDTV. Currently it looks like I may be renting a box until mid 2003 when the Dish PVR921 may come out, or a rival PVR - say the TivoHD PVR which is now rumoured for early 2004. I guess six to 12 months rental is something I can live with until the technology I want comes out...

Kerry

[mr_yeti]

Yes, digital cable makes for excellent subterfuge when trying to get the OK on HD from the wife/girlfriend. I placed my order with Time Warner today -- the woman I spoke with told me I'd be receiving 16 HBO channels with that package. I humoured (Aha! I was hoping the opportunity to include the surruptitious "u" would arise!) her, even though I knew that those likely included the HBO en espanol. And, since the only foreign language I speak involves the minor differences between our American English and the Queens', that does me little good. Still, I'm quite excited about the prospect of watching HDTV in the comfort of my own home. The install date is next Wednesday. I'm taking a half day of work for the occasion, as I'll be snookered if I'm going to have some cable installer mess around with my setup with only my ladyfriend present. Give me the box and kindly leave, please. I'll have to stock up on the cables I'll need. A Toslink, an S-Video, and some longer RCA composite cables, and I'll be all set. I am willing to rent until the cost of owning becomes more reasonable (as least as my checking account balance would define it). It's a compromise, but a small one, and I think I'll be happy with it.

I'll post results as they become available. Also, I jumped the gun and bought an RS double-bowtie off eBay for about $20. If I decide to stick with TWC, I'd definitely be willing to part with it for a like amount if anyone here would be interested. Aesthetically, I'll kind of miss it, but I will be alone in that.

[JoeK]

Just double checked the back of my cable box. There is no optical audio out. There is a digital (RCA plug) and a left and right analog audio out. The analog and digital sound issue is a bit of a bother. The HD picture is very nice. Looking forward to the additional channels. Sunday football is acceptable, but varies depending on the feed. Mondays games was quite good. I have a 106" screen with a HD projector.

I guess this thread got a bit off topic, but at least it got me my 15th post. Sorry.

[This message has been edited by JoeK (edited 11-13-2002).]

[kjnorman]

Yep, double checked mine tonight and alas there is no optical connection; just the coaxial. Hopefully you will still be able to connect all this up.

Mr Yeti, so you are going to get this installed on Wed 27th? Thats perfect timing as on Thursday 28, on HBO HD is Shrek at 8pm. Now you have to watch this. Shrek is probably the best picture I have ever seen. Utterly stupendous!

Anyway, this thread has gone way off topic so I will stop here.

Kerry

[mr_yeti]

Yes, this has become quite tangental. I think that's probably my fault, but it did turn into a good discussion. I'll start a thread in a more appropriate venue regarding issues related to this.

Kerry:

I cannot watch Shrek on Thursday night. I have too many hobbies, and one of them (musical pursuits) takes place on Thursdays. Oh well, I'm sure there will be many more movies to watch in the coming weeks and months.

[P a u l]

I just traded in my old digital cable box for the Scientific Atlanta box. NO PICTURE!!!!! I hear the sound at about 6dB lower than the analog channels. I have the S-Video out of the new box into my TV and nothing!!! I called TW and they say I need an HD monitor. So it looks like I wont get to see the fruits of my and my colleagues labor for a while. Kerry the digital audio out on the new box is RCA. For those who are getting surround do you have an RCA digital in on your receivers? I'm going to dig out the manual to see how I select the S-Video input on my TV since I have never used that input before. Mr. Yeti, ABC sends 5.1 only during scheduled HD shows, check our website www.wisn.com (http://www.wisn.com) and look under the entertainment section for a list of current shows. I still think Push is still listed, I havent checked the site in a few weeks, but if it is I will as for it to be removed on Monday from the list.

[kjnorman]

PAUL, you CAN NOT see a HD channel downconverted to NTSC via the 3100HD or any other TW digital box.

You can only see it via the component outputs plugged into a HDTV capable TV.

For the sound, you need to plug both the analog RCAs and the digital RCA to an amp and leave the amp on auto detect mode. If you're on an analog channel the amp will pick up the analog sound. If you're on a digital channel, you will get the digital sound from the digital rca connection.

Kerry

[gyoung]

Let me get this straight:

When I watch 504 or 512 and the show is not being broadcast in HD I see the picture with black bars at the top and black bars on the side. Can my Sony WEGA 36XBR display these shows full screen or not?

I currently have the TWC box's component video out to the TV video input 6. The DVD player's component video goes to the TV video input 5. The TWC box's s-video goes to the TVs video input 1.

When I am watching all channels except TWC's 504 (NBC), 512 (ABC), 710 (PBS), and 721 (HBO), I change the video input to 6 to get the Digital video input from the component video of the cable box. For all other channels I use video input 1.

[Pat]

Since nobody has answered you, I'll pipe up. Don't know about your specific Sony, but most sets will not allow you to "resize" an HD signal. The question is, is the signal always HD (1080i) from those outputs -- I would guess yes. So, unless your Sony can do the resize thing, you'll have to switch to another input and watch the analog channel or live with the black bars all around.

FWIW, this doesn't happen with OTA signals, so I don't see why it would from cable.

[This message has been edited by Pat (edited 11-19-2002).]

[kjnorman]

To follow up on this, yes the component outputs on the 3100HD only output 1080i. There is no setting (at least in my knowledge) that will allow you to output resolutions other than 1080i, nor is there any aspect ratio control in the box.

I do not know if your set has any ratio control on its 1080i input as I have no experience of 4:3 HDTV sets. I suspect what is happening is that you tv detects the 1080i signal which the set "knows" is a 16:9 ratio picture. It therefore compresses your vertical resolution to produce a 16:9 image. Its this that gives you the black surround.

On a normal 16:9 set, the 4:3 image only has the black bars at the sides.

My advise is to check the manual to see if you can "zoom" a HDTV image to allow you to see 4:3 in 4:3.

Kerry

[Joseph S]

Does anyone else notice glitches in HD Cable only on 504, 512, and 710?

I'm wondering if a new box would solve the issue. I don't have any problems with HBO or Showtime, but I consistently have intermittent Audio or Video glitches on the above named stations. Is it my 3100HD Box or a TW specific issue? The glitches on 504 and 512 are far more frequent than those on OTA. Shutting the box off and turning it back on solve the problem sometimes, but not always.

For those that cannot use the coax(std RCA plug) digital audio from the TW box, there are converters to convert the signal into optical for $17 at partsexpress.com .(and the reverse) There are more expensive ones available as well for under $75 from AudioAuthority and others.

[kjnorman]

Originally posted by Joseph S:
Does anyone else notice glitches in HD Cable only on 504, 512, and 710?

I'm wondering if a new box would solve the issue. I don't have any problems with HBO or Showtime, but I consistently have intermittent Audio or Video glitches on the above named stations. Is it my 3100HD Box or a TW specific issue?

I think this is a time warner issue. I have already switched my box, but I still get exactly the same intermittant crackle/popping sound through the digital out.

With regard to the video, I find WTMJ better since they went to a fiber feed, but again I occassionally (perhaps a couple of times in an evening) get a momentary black screen, as if the video feed lost it.

The video "pops" happen on 504 and 512 but not generally 710. The sound issues are on 504 and 710 but no generally 512.

I have no problem at all on HBO HD or Showtime HD.

Its gotta be TW.

Kerry