Any further Time-Warner "Navigator" software news?

[LoadStar]

What's the latest news regarding the "Navigator" cable box software? As I was hearing people on another board talk about the different cable box software, it jogged my memory and thought I'd ask and see. I mean, I thought eventually all Milwaukee area would get it... but thus far, my SA8300HD is still running the Aptiv software.

I mean, right now I'm fairly satisfied with the Aptiv software... it does almost everything I need it to do, and has been mostly stable (haven't managed to crash the box for a bit now), so I'm definitely not exactly begging for it here.

[dicktwi]

My 8300HD DVR was freezing up and spontaneously rebooting often enough that I got disgusted and went to Mayfair the other night and exchanged it. I was surprised to get the brand new 8300HD with Cable Card 2.0 (interactive) and a new remote. I was also surprised when I finally got it activated to see that I now had the Navigator software. I don't have time now to go into detail, but imho the software is definitely a mixed bag. There are things to like and things to dislike/hate compared to the Aptiv software. I'll just give one like and one dislike:
I like the fact that I can select black side bars on SD programming.
I dislike that fact that I can no longer go the guide, highlight a program like Damages and hit C to see a list of all the upcoming showings of that program. I now have to do a Find, "typing" in the name of the program.
Enough said for now. I haven't done a search, but perhaps someone else has already done a review of the Navigator software.

[gparris]

Nice of TWC Milwaukee to sneak in the Navigator software into the HD DVR boxes using the new fed requirement for cable boxes.
While my understanding is that the standard HD boxes have used Navigator for some time(?), the 8300HD DVR has not because of the bugs and major problems that were had with the Nebraska TWC location.
Now it is my understanding from what you just told us, dicktwi, that IF you have a still-functional 8300HD (without the C suffix), try to hold on to it as long as you can since the new ones the cable company must offer now use that crappy Navigator software.
Gee, thanks for nothing, TWC!:mad:

[VoidXero]

TWC tried to replace my 8300HD with a 8300HDC but after the first was DOA and the second never fully initialized they went back the drawing board. Nice job TWC, I'm stuck with the same old problems but now I have none of my settings or recorded shows. When will they get some (wired) competition and be forced out of business??? When???

[dicktwi]

Nice of TWC Milwaukee to sneak in the Navigator software into the HD DVR boxes using the new fed requirement for cable boxes.
While my understanding is that the standard HD boxes have used Navigator for some time(?), the 8300HD DVR has not because of the bugs and major problems that were had with the Nebraska TWC location.
Now it is my understanding from what you just told us, dicktwi, that IF you have a still-functional 8300HD (without the C suffix), try to hold on to it as long as you can since the new ones the cable company must offer now use that crappy Navigator software.
Gee, thanks for nothing, TWC!:mad:

I tried to return my 8300HDC for an 8300HD, but was told at Mayfair that the 8300HD is no more (at TWC). All anyone can get now is the 8300HDC. Furthermore, all current 8300HD's in service will have the Navigator software by the end of the year. My son is not happy about that.

An "oh, by the way": after rebooting the box 3 times (it froze during the reboot the 1st and 2nd times), it now finally seems to be recording all my scheduled recordings ok. I still dislike the Navigator software, but what am I to do? Install DirecTV? I went to Circuit City and the sales guy was really cooperative in showing me how various channels looked on all their big screen hdtv's. Although the SD definitely looked better than TWC out of the 8300HD/C, the HD just didn't look as good to me as TWC. Plus, when I had Dish Network some years ago, it was a real pain in the *** losing tv during every heavy rain and every heavy wet snow. I have to give TWC Milwaukee credit for that anyway. I have NEVER to my knowledge, lost my TWC cable tv service. If only we could get FIOS, but...oh well, at least we're not as bad off as some cities.

[gparris]

On a positive note (if indeed there is any with TWC), maybe the bugs in the Navigator software will be fixed (at least more) for use with the balance of the other STBs in current use.
Surely, the thousands of 8300HD DVRs out there without cable card use will not have to be returned for the 8300HDCs and the Navigator interface with its issues will be mostly, if not completely, fixed (positive note again).
While I am not absolutely certain, I would assume that cities like San Antonio and Austin, TX already use 8300HDs and the full-blown Navigator, amongst others, with that "start over" software in place.
Things are not looking good for TWC in Milwaukee if this is the way Navigator is going to stay (extremely buggy), however.:(

[Bigdog]

I just exchanged an old 8000 and ended up with the 8300HDC. One thing I noticed right away was the volume was lower on it and I don't see a way to set levels like you could with the old box or even the 8300HD.

[patnshan]

I now have an 8300HD and an 8300HDC. Thankfully, I am having no problems with either. I record shows on both and have not had any difficulty.

One thing I do like about the HDC, is that I can get black bars on SD stations. On the HD, I have these stupid looking gray bars and there is no way to change it.

Pat

[wireblsam]

I noticed that there must have been an update recently to the software. The graphics are a little smaller on the channel banner and it seems to be moving a little quicker when changing channels.

[gparris]

I now have an 8300HD and an 8300HDC. Thankfully, I am having no problems with either. I record shows on both and have not had any difficulty.

One thing I do like about the HDC, is that I can get black bars on SD stations. On the HD, I have these stupid looking gray bars and there is no way to change it.

Pat

Nice to know the two can behave well with one of each in the same billing address and connection house.:)

Can you still do a stretch for the SD channels by pushing the "#" key to eliminate the side bars altogether with the 8300HDC using Navigator?:confused:
I hate the vertical side bars worse than the stretching, but that's me.

[patnshan]

Nice to know the two can behave well with one of each in the same billing address and connection house.:)

Can you still do a stretch for the SD channels by pushing the "#" key to eliminate the side bars altogether with the 8300HDC using Navigator?:confused:
I hate the vertical side bars worse than the stretching, but that's me.

I don't know about the # key, but you can do it. I actually run my settings as 4:3 for video on the 8300HDC, even though I have a 16:9 TV in the bedroom. This seems to stretch the channels that are 4:3 and leave the 16:9 one's alone. I am not sure why??? If I don't do that, I get the black bars. I get gray bars with my panny projector and the 8300HD.

Pat

[gparris]

Running Passport/Echo with Aptiv you on the 8300HD (no C) you can change the picture to zoom, stretch or side bar by pressing the # key until you find what you like and then press the exit key.
If the box's settings remember everything, you don't have to go into the setup button on the remote and then press the yellow "A" triangle for more options, then exit button.
Navigator is buggy as I understand it, but getting better.
I hope I never have to use it, but as a consumer, I can love it or leave (TWC) it.
Trouble is, I have few, if any, provider options right now, what with all the "competition".:(

[Jack 1000]

Greetings,

First time poster from the Metro Milwaukee area! I currently have a TWC DVR with Passport on it. Back in January, I received a form letter that the box, which I had for six years was being upgraded to Navigator. Fortunately that did not happen. I am aware that despite after a year in the field the problems seem to exist primarily with DVR series recording and something called a "Channel not available Bug." How has this been going for TWC Milwaukee subscribers since January? I heard about the horror stories in Lincoln Nebraska where the software was so bad that the city council got involved.

Have any of you had a download of your boxes or DVR's to Navigator? I have not heard of any Navigator downloads since March or April. I presume TWC Milwaukee learned of the problems in Lincoln Nebraska, and as of now is only releasing Navigator to the new Cable Card "C" boxes known as OCAP. These boxes are designated by a "C" in the model number.

Does anyone know when Navigator is scheduled to launch on the 8300 HD and 8000 DVR's? How will TWC deal with the older boxes such as Pioneer and Pace, that presumably don't have enough memory to run Navigator? Will the lesser memory boxes remain with Passport until they naturally die out?

The big question, is what type and how much of a warning do subscribers get before this software is launched?

Regards,

Jack

[Jack 1000]

Here are some ideas that I have with regards to Navigator usage tips. An ongoing issue being researched by Time Warner Cable is the dreaded "Channel Not Available" bug, most notably on series recordings. See my comments below:

I don't think that the occasional reboot will hurt anything, especially if you have problems. I still have Passport and get stuck with an end of Daylight Savings Time issue, where the guide displayed "No Data" between 11pm-12am. After a reboot (maybe two, but one for sure) I found out that this wasn't a converter issue, but a signal head-end issue. Whether you had/have Passport, Sara, or Navigator, if it's a head-end issue becomes a moot point.

I would suggest to TWC in the interim as they research this "Channel Not Available" bug, particularly with series recordings to activate the head-end with some sort of automatic reboot process once a week sometime between 4am-6am (or whenever viewership is lowest.) At least the head-end data could be refreshed regularly and people who's TV outlets/surge protectors might be in awkward positions don't have to go through the crap of unplugging the converter every week.

Another tip for Navigator users would be to do what I do on Passport. I don't use the Series Manager because I don't trust it, and I don't want to clutter up the hard drive with episodes I don't like. So what I do is the following:

1.) Set each show to record individually. In other words, I don't treat a series as a series, but I go through and based on the IPG description, I can tell the DVR exactly what I want and I know that what I DON'T want, won't be recording.

2.) If you have a show that you value, DON'T set something else to record at the same time slot. (Especially with Navigator) We know that the Recording Log Conflict Manager for Navigator is not reliable. So try to program your shows so that Navigator only has one thing to do at a time. If you REALLY have a show that is critical, pop a VCR tape in or if you have a DVD burner, do that. Than, you will have a backup IF Navigator craps out in the middle of a recording.

3.) If you have episodes of a series that didn't record, or you are concerned about them, the best workaround is to delete each show in the series manager and schedule the programs individually. Elaborating on suggestion #1, the reasoning for this is two-fold:

a.) Navigator often does not know how to deal with "New" series recordings, because there is some issues as to what (for Navigator) makes something a "new recording." If the "New recording" information is coming from the head-end and the head end is being updated once a week, for some reason, it is not known if the IPG for Navigator says:

"OK was this new at the time it was programed by the user?" OR

b.) Is this no longer "new" because the head-end data has been updated?" Translation: "Channel Not Available" happens due to the signal head-end information and Navigator are not synchronizing with each other?

Now if the above is happening to you with a series in the Series Manager, and you get the "Channel Not Available" bug, you are going to have.........a mess. At least by INDIVIDUALLY selecting episodes, you would have less of a chance of seeing the "Channel Not Available" bug because the newest shows are supposed to be recorded as first priority. By individually selecting shows, Navigator "thinks" that they are not part of a "series" and using this method MIGHT cause more reliable box behavior.

This sounds more and more with how the Navigator software deals with head-end signals, and may have nothing to do with the box hardware itself.

Jack

[Jack 1000]

Has anyone called, written, or e-mailed Time Warner as to when Navigator is scheduled to be downloaded to their preexisting boxes in their particular division? What month are we looking at? Or are they waiting until next year?

Jack

[bbone]

1st post here, fairly new to HD as well as TWC, having just purchased an HD TV in June and having TWC installed in late July. Had a "system update" come thru at about 3 a.m. Tuesday morning and about 20 minutes after that was done the box shut off again for an "explorer" update. After the updates my box was messed up in that I could no longer change the picture size, movie channels and HD channels all were full screen 16:9, but all other channels would display at 4:3, settings could not be changed either thru the settings menu or using the # key, however a program that would display at 4:3 while recording would display at 16:9 after it was recorded!

Finally got frustrated and called TWC and they sent out a couple of techs while I was at work Friday, the tech asked my wife what was wrong and when she told them they said that there were a number of problems with the update and they had replaced a number of boxes. So they ended up replacing our box and then told my wife that there was another update scheduled for this coming week, but that it shouldn't affect our box.....believe it when I see it!

Anyway the new box(8300HD) is working fine and I don't want to reboot it without a reason, how can I find out what software is on it? Our previous box had a guide that was primarily blue as were screens on the settings page, now on this box the guide is primarily purple and seems to function much better than the previous box as far as making changes and picking channels to view in the guide, before we had to punch in the channel number and then hit select to see it in the guide, now we just punch in the # and we can view that channels programming. I just have a feeling that this box might have passport on it instead of navigator which will be a huge disappointment. If on the other hand this is a new version of navigator, it's a big improvement to me!

[Jack 1000]

1st post here, fairly new to HD as well as TWC, having just purchased an HD TV in June and having TWC installed in late July. Had a "system update" come thru at about 3 a.m. Tuesday morning and about 20 minutes after that was done the box shut off again for an "explorer" update. After the updates my box was messed up in that I could no longer change the picture size, movie channels and HD channels all were full screen 16:9, but all other channels would display at 4:3, settings could not be changed either thru the settings menu or using the # key, however a program that would display at 4:3 while recording would display at 16:9 after it was recorded!

Finally got frustrated and called TWC and they sent out a couple of techs while I was at work Friday, the tech asked my wife what was wrong and when she told them they said that there were a number of problems with the update and they had replaced a number of boxes. So they ended up replacing our box and then told my wife that there was another update scheduled for this coming week, but that it shouldn't affect our box.....believe it when I see it!

Anyway the new box(8300HD) is working fine and I don't want to reboot it without a reason, how can I find out what software is on it? Our previous box had a guide that was primarily blue as were screens on the settings page, now on this box the guide is primarily purple and seems to function much better than the previous box as far as making changes and picking channels to view in the guide, before we had to punch in the channel number and then hit select to see it in the guide, now we just punch in the # and we can view that channels programming. I just have a feeling that this box might have passport on it instead of navigator which will be a huge disappointment. If on the other hand this is a new version of navigator, it's a big improvement to me!

The easiest way to tell if you have Navigator or Passport:

If you press "A" on your remote control and and your Access Menu comes up, you have Navigator.

If you press A on your remote and nothing happens, you have Passport.

If you have Digital Phone added to your Digital Cable service:

For Navigator: (For TV Caller ID) Press A on your remote and scroll down to Caller ID and press Select to see or change settings. Press Exit to leave the Access Menu.

For Passport: To examine or change Caller ID settings on TV go to channel 199 and press A to examine the settings. Follow prompts to change. To leave settings as they are, change channels.

Jack

[bbone]

That's what I was afraid of, I have Passport on this box and sometime probably soon I'll be stuck with the crappy Navigator again! Figures TWC would take what appears to be good software and replace it with garbage, I was really hoping I had the latest version of Navigator and that they had learned from their mistakes. With Navigator reboots up to 7 times a week were common, I'm not looking forward to that again. Then again I've only had Passport for a couple of days now, maybe this box will start rebooting all of the time too and I'll just have to learn to live with it, but so far to me anyway Passport is a hundred times better.

[kevbeck122]

I think I read on this forum that Navigator would be deployed to the 8300HDs by the end of the year.. let's hope not :D.

[Jack 1000]

I have a feeling that Navigator is coming sooner than expected to the legacy boxes:

My brochure says begining in December that TWC is making their premium channel On Demand for free (as long as you subscribe to the premium channel in question.) If you do, you get Free on Demand, supposedly in December. The current Answers on Demand information (AOD channel 1999) talks about having to pay the $6.95/monthly fee and all of the tutorial menus are Passport related.

I don't think they would change those tutorial videos without changing the system. This is just a theory. We'll see what happens.

Jack

[kevbeck122]

I just got a SA4250HDC box with Navigator on it. I must say it's a lot better on this box than when they forced us to beta test on the Pace DC551 box. It was really buggy on that box and froze up quite a bit. The only thing I don't like so far is the constant need to update the guide. A lot of times I move up a couple of channels and it has to update the guide, taking away the video for awhile. It's almost like it doesn't keep much in memory. The interface is a little slower than Passport.. but I can live with it.

[Jack 1000]

Well,

If it's a sign of things to come, Navigator here in TWC-Milwaukee has been moved to the home page of TWC's Wisconsin website. It hasn't been that way since the January test rollout. I wonder if we are going to get a notification of the change over?

Jack

[oz]

I received a call on my mobile phone just now from TWC with a recording about Navigator. Some of the call was cut-off, but I think it was telling me that my box is going to be upgraded soon.

[kevbeck122]

Regarding my post above... after having it for a week I'm back to not liking it. A lot of times it takes 5-10 seconds for it to respond after I type in a channel. It still does that stupid guide update many times when just moving a couple channels up the guide. It's still better than the Pace box.. but not that much better.

[RLJSlick]

I got my new Navigator updated on my 3 HD decoder boxes today. My boxes been rebooting every other day for about a week. Everything seems nice, lot's a new menus.
BTW the new boxes are called Mystro now not Passport.

[Jack 1000]

I got my new Navigator updated on my 3 HD decoder boxes today. My boxes been rebooting every other day for about a week. Everything seems nice, lot's a new menus.
BTW the new boxes are called Mystro now not Passport.

Everyone,

Did you get a phone call or mailer before the upgrade, and how much time elapsed between your notification and the upgrade? For questions, problems, or concerns about the upgrade, please indicate your type of cable box (OCAP or Non OCAP, DVR or standard box, as well as any other pertinent information.) The Cable Card boxes are designated by a C in the model number. (AKA OCAP) the non-OCAP boxes, where the software that has been, or shortly will be downloaded to legacy boxes and DVR's, have no C in the model number. Thanks! Keep us posted!

Jack

[kermtfrg]

I got a phone call Monday, card in the mail Tuesday and one of the boxes(HD, no DVR) was upgraded sometime Wednesday. The other box (HD DVR) hasn't been upgraded yet.

[tschinner]

I have two Pioneer HD boxes (no DVR). Both got Navigator yesterday. My biggest issue so far is that I lost the preview pane when watching an HD channel and you open the guide. The preview pane is black.

My only hope is that this will allow them to add more HD channels via SDV. I am not going to wait much longer.

[gparris]

My only hope is that this will allow them to add more HD channels via SDV. I am not going to wait much longer.
Actually, some avsforum members report not any or many, TWC HD channel additions after SDV deployment, at least in their TWC area, sad to say.
So don't get your "hopes up" too much, okay?

Nobody that can make a switch to D* will stay with TWC for HD channel selection, soon, IMO.
Unless they live with an obstruction to the southern sky like trees, houses on a hill, condo/apartment living without possible access
...or require all their locals in HD, like CBSHD (a requirement for our household).

The only thing that would really be bad for anyone to have TWC with Navigator is HD DVR use messed up like the Nebraska TWC nightmare of months ago.
-That alone could drive me to D* and beg for some kind of waiver to get CBSHD in NYC, if at all possible, like some forum members claim they are able to.
Note: Depending if your TWC area has Passport or Sara, Navigator in DVR boxes can be either a nightmare or a mixed blessing, at best.
Some in avsforums refer to it as "Crapagator", which is not something I would look forward to.

Now, once all the installs due to the dozens of HD channels just added begins to slow down a bit, D* could offer even more incentives to getting them, IMO.
Right now, installers are very busy and STBs can become scarce overnight, it seems, especially this time of year.;)

After watching my brother's Directv H20 w/Slimline Dish setup, I was very envious.
You don't have a DVR yet, but you might want to get one if you switch, just to keep track of all the great HD available from Directv, like he is.
He's going from the D* model H20>HR21 instead (since he doesn't care to do OTA).

[Jack 1000]

Everyone,

Did you get a phone call or mailer before the upgrade, and how much time elapsed between your notification and the upgrade? For questions, problems, or concerns about the upgrade, please indicate your type of cable box (OCAP or Non OCAP, DVR or standard box, as well as any other pertinent information.) The Cable Card boxes are designated by a C in the model number. (AKA OCAP) the non-OCAP boxes, where the software that has been, or shortly will be downloaded to legacy boxes and DVR's, have no C in the model number. Thanks! Keep us posted!

Jack

Update info: Does anyone here know when TWC is supposed to begin Navigator's roll out to DVR boxes? I don't want to lose my saved recordings and this is what I am most concerned about. Please post any timetables or schedules for the Navigator upgrade if known. For those who have been upgraded, how is it working for you?

Jack

[LoadStar]

Update info: Does anyone here know when TWC is supposed to begin Navigator's roll out to DVR boxes? I don't want to lose my saved recordings and this is what I am most concerned about. Please post any timetables or schedules for the Navigator upgrade if known. For those who have been upgraded, how is it working for you?

Jack

Oooh, good point. I certainly hope they don't just blast out the software without warning and blow away recordings... I have an entire season worth of Heroes to catch up on over the winter break, and if they just vanish, I'll be just a tiny bit outraged.

[gparris]

Outraged? At TWC? Come on now...they think they're "gods" among cablecos.
I got a transcript from an email from a friend of mine that got that TWC Navigator info-booklet in the mail yesterday, he's not-too-happy, to put it mildly:

"Dear Ms. Greenberg:
Yesterday was my birthday. I had an awesome birthday, that was until I got home and saw an announcement in the mail: "The Arrival of NAVIGATOR"
I have been following the release of Navigator by TWC to replace the existing Menuing System on your set top boxes for sometime, and knowing that the history of deployment of "Navigator" into other areas did not go well is an understatement by any means. The subscribers to your products and offerings sent in many, many complaints regarding the complexity of the system, shows that were not recording, hours of programming that seemed to disappear.

The notes from a City of Lincoln Nebraska ("http://www.lincoln.ne.gov/city/council/agenda/2007/030507/d030507.pdf") is littered with complaints regarding the failures of this system.

Arron Barnhart's blog details the woes as well. http://blogs.kansascity.com/tvbarn/2007/12/this-is-an-upgr.html. Anyone from any of the successful HD and TV Audio Video and Forums who has been following Navigator's roll-out can counter the hundreds of horror stories, and fear that they too would The complaints went as high as the government some of the states.
Here in Kenosha we have very little choice for cable, as AT&T's new offering is not being allowed until such time issues regarding delivering and box placements (and sizes) can be worked through. Our only other choice other than OTA (Over The Air) is Satellite (Direct TV/, Dish, etc) While the city of Kenosha has done an admirable job in helping in this area, I hope that by including the Mayor and the City Attorney's office, that as now one of the larger cities on SE Wisconsin that they can somehow get answers from TWC before the release of Navigator to an unknowing public subscriber base..

Before you release it to your subscriber base here in SE Wisconsin do us a favor…..Tell us what works, tell us what doesn’t. Report the bugs and issues upfront, and give us the ability to decline to be TWC Beta Testing Center for Navigator. But please do not make the same mistake twice. Please don't do to Wisconsin what your did to your subscribers in Nebraska, and when you do, I'll at least have this email to say you were asked not to and did so anyway.
Thank You! "
So first of all, now we get "Navigator" for DVR service, being the "Beta Testers for TWC as other locations have"
-Do you realize your DVR fee went up 6% for 2008, too?

Secondly, TWC Wisconsin gives us subscribers the fewest HD channel additions as other TWC locations bask in over three DOZEN HD channels. As for other cablecos:
Comcast in the Twin Cities is adding another ELEVEN HD channels (formerly TWC).

Here is a release found in the HDTV Twin Cities website:
"ST. PAUL, MINN. – (December 11, 2007) – Comcast is adding 11 new channels to its high-definition (HD) lineup in the Twin Cities and Western Wisconsin, providing customers with even more HD choice just in time for the holidays. The new channels include: CNN HD, TBS HD, TLC HD, USA HD, FSN North HD, Food HD, Universal HD, Sci-Fi HD, Discovery HD, Animal Planet HD and History HD. When combined with Comcast’s HD ON DEMAND programming, the company brings customers more high-definition choice than either DirecTV or Dish Network.
“With so many households buying HD televisions for the holidays and football playoffs, Comcast customers will be able to find movies, sports and other great programming in crystal-clear high-definition format,” said Bill Wright, Comcast Twin Cities Region vice president. “We are excited that our new channels paired with our HD ON DEMAND programming give customers more HD programming choices than anyone.”
Comcast now features 33 HD channels in the Minnesota market, including all of the local broadcast HDTV stations, as well as ESPN HD, Discovery Theatre, National Geographic HD, HBO HD and many others. In addition, customers will find dozens of high-definition programming choices on HD ON DEMAND.
According to Wright, the company will add several more HD channels and additional HD ON DEMAND content in the coming months. “Comcast is committed to bringing our customers the programming they want, when they want it, the way they want to watch it,” he said.
All of the new channels will be available by December 17 to more than 1.1 million homes in the Greater Twin Cities and Western Wisconsin area. Adding high-definition programming is fast and easy for current and new Comcast customers. For more information about Comcast’s products and services in the Twin Cities, please call (651) 222-3333 or visit the company’s Web site at www.comcast.com. "

Third, TWC Wisconsin decides to add a price increase for 2008, just to make us all so much more "happy" with them!

BTW, Comcast is slowly delivering Tivo-type programming to its DVRs in some cities, while TWC here will be dumping "Navigator" aka "Crapagator" on us here.

So we get three things in 2008 that really bring the "joy" of TWC Wisconsin cable
(since not everyone has access to D* or U-Verse):
1) Navigator, TWC's crappy-programming DVR system
2) Few HD channels added unlike other TWC locations (much less Comcast) and to add insult to injury, (so to speak)
3) A price increase for 2008!

This is just one person irritated with TWC Wisconsin, think of how many subscribers are still silent...and switching if they can.:mad:

[LuckySe7ens]

I have a funny feeling the software is being downloaded behind the scenes onto my box right now. I have 1 program recording, yet when I try to change the channel, it informs me that both tuners are busy. Anyone else experiencing this?

[Jack 1000]

Some suggestions for everyone regarding the Navigator or comments about it:

Please add your city location to your profile or mention in what city you are located, or at least your closest main city. (I am in the Metropolitan Milwaukee area.) The other thing that might help is to tell us the type of box that you have, is it a DVR or non-DVR model? How long did the upgrade take? How was the behavior of the box when it was completed? Oh yea, for DVR users, did you lose any of your saved or scheduled shows? What about Favorite Channels and or Pin # settings for I-Control/PPV, and Parental Control if these settings are applicable for you and your family? How is the speed of the new Guide?

The more info we have in this regard, the easier it will be to talk about specifics of the changeover and any other help that can be provided.

Jack

[Cheesehead Dave]

Ugh. I got the card in the mail yesterday as well. (TWC Kenosha) I have several shows saved and a number of series recordings scheduled. When the downgrade happens, I'll toss in my report of the results.

[jamisonweber]

I got my card on Tuesday.:bang:

Boy am I happy I am switching to DirectTV on Saturday.:guitar:

[Kenoman]

Received my Navigator coming card in the mail earlier this week along with my property tax bill. Merry Christmas from TWC And the City of Kenosha.

Have SA8300HD

[gparris]

Received my Navigator coming card in the mail earlier this week along with my property tax bill. Merry Christmas from TWC And the City of Kenosha.

Have SA8300HD

You forgot the "Bah Humbug" or " Thank you for shafting us !":p

[gparris]

BTW, the friend of mine that sent the letter to the honorable(?) Bev Greenberg got an answer that TWC wants to have the Navigator tested with a box sent out for analysis on the HD DVR side.:eek:

I said that while it would be informative to get the search box with "Navigator"in it,this would be/should be just another HD DVR box uncharged for trial only and then the other still be fine for use in case Navigator was as sick and disturbing (rotten) as the other TWC locations have had it already.

FYI, I have tried doing a search in the box on the other TWC websites that already HAVE 30+ HD channel availablity and the search word "Navigator" does not come up.
I will assume Navigator is not even required to get more HD channels for any TWC location, its just a ploy to get their way with subs here once more.:bang:

Notice: The DVR rate for 2008 goes from $7.95/month to $8.50/month in addition to the $7.95 cable box rental just to enjoy the "joys" of Navigator, just think!

[Jack 1000]

BTW, the friend of mine that sent the letter to the honorable(?) Bev Greenberg got an answer that TWC wants to have the Navigator tested with a box sent out for analysis on the HD DVR side.

So what does this mean to us as users? Are we going to get a delay in the rollout while the HD DVR boxes are tested? How many boxes are considered part of the "test?" Or is the test the actual rollout to DVR boxes?! Uh Ohhhh!!!

What else did Ms. Greenberg have to say?

Jack

[gparris]

No, it means for those who already are knowledgeable about the crap that is Navigator, they might get a chance to play with it on the DVRs before it actually hits.
Unless you have access to U-Verse (which we are not allowed to have in Kenosha), TWC is your only hope unless you drop and run to D* or E*.

From what I can understand, Navigator is not required to give us at very least the extra ten more HD channels other TWC locations get:
A large chunk of NYC just added almost a dozen new HD channels on the 13th with no mention of Navigator like we have here on their site (correct me if I am wrong).

TWC knows that Navigator is not a requirement to us getting more HD channels because it would otherwise say so-TWC Wisconsin just doesn't care about us HD subs, IMO.
So barring any governmental interference to assist the poor consumer as in Nebraska TWC:
Navigator for your DVR will be coming to definitely "frack" up your recording experience.

Passport may have not had all the planned features TWC hoped for, but for most of us, it works fine
...so why mess up a good thing?
-Their name is Time Warner Cable Wisconsin, that's why:
-Because they can.:mad:

[kevbeck122]

Navigator is not required for HD additions.. it's the bandwidth issue and the fact that they are slow on agreements with channels to get them on their system. My assumption, and I could be wrong, is that they are too concerned with getting the whole OCAP thing working and Navigator was the only way they could go at the time. I think Aptiv/Pioneer was a little slow on getting Passport ported to the OCAP platform. Plus there's gotta be cost savings for TWC doing everything in house... aren't they the ones developing it? They don't care about customers.. they just want to save money is what I'm thinking.

The only thing I somewhat like is that the guide looks better in Navigator. Other than that, if I'm browsing the guide or the 'Find Shows' screen I constantly get "Please Wait" because it seems like it only holds a few hours worth of the guide in memory. The interface is just too slow. I'm guessing OCAP and Navigator take up too much memory, and therefore there isn't enough to run the box in a fast manner... but I could be wrong.

[gparris]

Navigator is crap and TWC doesn't care about us, otherwise the guide and interface would work better and faster, period.
If Navigator requires more advanced cable boxes, TWC should rightfully offer them:
Afterall, their cable box monthly rates aren't cheap.
Better cable boxes with more memory should have occurred FIRST, if that is the problem, not after...this is bad on TWC's part...period.

Honestly, if there is a cost savings to having an in-house programming system, our cable bills do not reflect that and the new 2008 pricing for DVR use does not support that.
It's just all BS, IMO, just like those "10+ HD channels in October" crap from those TWC telemarketers.
If there are contracts, why doesn't TWC Wisconsin sign them and add the darn channels?
Why?
Because they are being cheap about it, but our new 2008 cable bills for Digital Service just went up again:
-why do they have to do/give anything for us, unless they really want to?
Looks like the SDV is out there otherwise cablecard subscribers would be able to access them and with SDV, those new HD channels are not accessable.
Assumption: Then there is bandwidth out there for more HD channels, but TWC thinks we here in Wisconsin are too ignorant to know about them, IMHO.

As for DVR service, why do us subscribers have to be the TWC "guinea pigs" or Beta Testers at $8.50/month service charge per box?
WHY? I would think the pricing should have gone down or free until it got up to "speed", literally!

At this rate, I hope everyone migrates to other providers if they insist on us being their "test subjects"!

Remember, other TWC locations don't even have to have it, so it just shows what I been thinking all along:
TWC Wisconsin doesn't care about its subscribers, especially the higher-end ones with digital cable service/HD services, definitely a better revenue customer they assumedly would want to keep, but I am thinking not, anymore.

[Jack 1000]

Yea,

It's 50% politics and 50% BS. I guess the big $64,000 Question is, when can we expect the rollout of this "wonderful?" guide? Us subscribers need time to watch what we have recorded on our DVR's and back up our recordings accordingly. Did any of the mailed cards give a date for the guide to be rolled out?

BTW, I am also registered as Satch Man on the AVS Forums about Navigator. If you aren't familiar with the HUGE thread about the trials and tribulations of this software, which has been going on for over a year, it's here: (As of this post, it's 89 pages long!)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=723830&page=1&pp=30&highlight=journal

I hope to give, share and exchange information between each of the forums, in the hopes that local experiences with Navigator will be brought to a national light, and that national experiences can also be observed at the local level. Let's hope for SOME improvement, because even if you are in an unlikely division without Navigator problems, I really find it hard to see how this new guide is an "upgrade."

Jack

[gparris]

Thanks for your help, Jack 1000 in advance.
You know, I do like their RR and DPhone service, but always disliked the cableTV part until the HD DVRs came out vs. the HD box and SD DVR separately as it started out a few years ago.
Back then, the dish providers had DVRs, but the HD/DVR combo box just either didn't exist or they didn't offer an inexpensive way to get it, by rental, like TWC did.

Lately, however, TWC here has had frequent price increases, but few if any, HD channel additions, as other TWC locations get more and more every month.
Any subscriber would likely see what other TWC locations are getting and comparitively, TWC here offers a lot less in HD channels for approx. the same pricing as other locations. Does TWC here think their subscribers are that ignorant? Everyone with access can find out what other TWC locations get or thru avs.

The attitude in the installs or consulting I do is :
"Do we HAVE to get cable for HD?"
The answer is no, not necessarily, but outside of dish services and U-verse, there is no more competition, unfortunately here in Wisconsin.

Now Navigator is rolling out, it is untested, poorly managed and slow as crap:
This could be the "final straw" for everyone with a DVR in Wisconsin, after the price increases and the few HD channel additions, before they try to switch to another payTV provider.:D

[Jack 1000]

Thanks for your help, Jack 1000 in advance.
You know, I do like their RR and DPhone service, but always disliked the cableTV part until the HD DVRs came out vs. the HD box and SD DVR separately as it started out a few years ago.
Back then, the dish providers had DVRs, but the HD/DVR combo box just either didn't exist or they didn't offer an inexpensive way to get it, by rental, like TWC did.

Lately, however, TWC here has had frequent price increases, but few if any, HD channel additions, as other TWC locations get more and more every month.
Any subscriber would likely see what other TWC locations are getting and comparitively, TWC here offers a lot less in HD channels for approx. the same pricing as other locations. Does TWC here think their subscribers are that ignorant? Everyone with access can find out what other TWC locations get or thru avs.

The attitude in the installs or consulting I do is :
"Do we HAVE to get cable for HD?"
The answer is no, not necessarily, but outside of dish services and U-verse, there is no more competition, unfortunately here in Wisconsin.

Now Navigator is rolling out, it is untested, poorly managed and slow as crap:
This could be the "final straw" for everyone with a DVR in Wisconsin, after the price increases and the few HD channel additions, before they try to switch to another payTV provider.:D

Good points,

You know what? I don't have HD yet because TWC-Wisconsin doesn't offer enough channels in HD format, and I am surrounded by about a million trees in my community, so Dish is not an option for me.

Jack

[Tom Snyder]

Does TWC have a development community like DirecTV does to test beta versions of their software before it rolls out to the masses?

A weekend doesn't go by where there isn't an updated test version of DirecTV's software avialable for forced download, testing and feedback to D* to a group of volunteer testers. It's not uncommon for a version to undergo 9 or 10 bug fixes and re-releases before it's sent down to the general public. We've been testing D*'s Video on Demand for a couple months.

[kevbeck122]

I don't know if they had anything before the public beta test last year. I don't know how they picked the public test either.. maybe those with HDTVs got it, but they forced us into the test sometime last year on a standard HD box. I think on the bill they told us they were "upgrading" our box and we were supposed to test the new software and give feedback. We gave them negative feedback because it didn't work well at all, but they didn't listen and said that this was going to be deployed to everyone eventually.

[Bebop]

The beta testers are usually their employees.

[Kenoman]

Thought I would share this reply from TWC when I e-mailed them to ask when Navigator would be forced on us here in Kenosha.

Thank you for writing to Time Warner Cable.

Time Warner Cable is upgrading the software in all of our converters to the new Navigator system which will enhance your television viewing. This upgrade is being performed one converter model at a time to insure its completion without any problems. While the upgrade is taking longer than expected, our programmers are working as quickly as possible to bring this new service to all of our Customers. You will not need to exchange your cable converter to receive the upgraded software. The upgrade is slated to be completed before 12/31/07. Your patience in the mean time is greatly appreciated.

[Tom Snyder]

The beta testers are usually their employees.In the software world, that's Alpha testing. An internal team simply CAN'T test software the way the masses use it... so they do some well-intentioned but incomplete testing, and release a Beta version as final product. Nice.

Just another reason for this:

http://bigcharts.marketwatch.com/charts/big.chart?symb=TWX&compidx=aaaaa%3A0&ma=0&maval=9&uf=0&lf=1&lf2=0&lf3=0&type=2&size=2&state=8&sid=1568670&style=320&time=8&freq=1&nosettings=1&rand=5500&mocktick=1&rand=6296

[gparris]

SO....we TWC HD subs are about to be "Beta Dumped" a software programme that is not completely tested, runs slow, forgets/dumps recorded programmes?
All this "fun" for our HD DVRs, whether or not it is necessary for more HD channels, by the end of the year in SE Wisconsin?

You know, the word "Navigator" is not found in many TWC sites (I checked all of them)
-that DO have 30+ HD channels (vs. our so called 23 per TWC, 20 actual full time).
All this Navigator crap, so that TWC can "do its thing" and dump Passport, a operating system that DOES work fine?

That stinks and we just got a 6.9% increase in our DVR fees...ugh!:bang:
This, of course, in addition to the average +5% increase in cable rates on the now "Digital Standard" (formerly Digipic 1000).

With the lack of HD channel additions as compared to many other TWC locations
This Navigator crap being dumped on us
Now the price increases:

It stinks to have TWC for payTV, won't it?:(

[Jack 1000]

AN IMPORTANT TIP ON THE NAVIGATOR SOFTWARE:

I found this out from someone who had Navigator problems and spoke to a supervisor tech. If you are having Navigator problems when you call, HAVE THEM CHECK THE SIGNAL COMING INTO YOUR HOME. He said that a lot of Navigator's issues that aren't box related are coming from weak signals being transmitted to the home. Have them bring a reader, and if necessary replace any cables that show evidence of weak signal strength.

Jack

[Jack 1000]

You guys will like this!

I have this vision of TWC releasing this just before Christmas to thousands of people. (Gee, what perfect timing!!!! hahahaha!) So I wrote this little jingle that maybe some "disgruntled" TWC employees could put inside of Christmas cards:

(Sung to "Holly Jolly Christmas")

HAVE A NAVIGATOR (A.K.A CRAPIGATOR) CHRISTMAS

Have a "Crapigator" Christmas
It's the season's biggest fear
We don't know if it will load
On boxes we hold dear!

Have a "Crapigator" Christmas
And remember what was neat
Say goodbye to Passport's Guide
It was so very sweet!!!!

F**K Crapigator Sucks!
As everyone will see
Somebody keep a box
With Passport just for me!

(Crapigator, Crapigator, Crapigator.........Ohhhh!)

Have a Crapigator Christmas
It is coming out this year
No way jolly
It's a "Crapigator" Christmas.........this year!!!

Jack

[gparris]

Jack 1000:

YOU are a mind-reader!

Honestly, I was just thinking of a tune for the holidays that would rhyme for Crapagator and TWC Wisconsin, but you got one first.:rof:

But I was going add something about naughty and nice and mix in a routine about the few HD channel additions we got (missing presents) and the Bah Humbug 2008 Price Increase with it (the coal in the stocking)!

[Jack 1000]

On a more serious note, (Navigator Recording of a DVR Series.)

I was told by a member of the AVS forum who offered a tip about saving series recordings. Navigator's default is to save 3 recordings of each series show selected. More than 3 will NOT SAVE the recording unless you change series options. He said that people may think that they are saving more than 3 episodes when they are not, and thinking that their shows are being deleted or erased. If you don't want a series recording to be erased, you should select "Record Series With Options" (and there are several options.) Selecting "Keep All" on each series, or something similar to that prompt will keep each recorded series intact until you actually change the options for that series in the Series Manager.

Jack

[gparris]

So outside of a poor cable signal that would create a poor load response time (assumed), the missing or lost recordings depend on a setup command?
For me, I watch my recordings within a week's time and then erase them.

It's just the setup for season pass and getting the original (new) recordings recorded and the setup process not taking any longer than the current Passport time now problem that were reported...ugh.
...thanks for the input once again!

[Jack 1000]

So outside of a poor cable signal that would create a poor load response time (assumed), the missing or lost recordings depend on a setup command?
For me, I watch my recordings within a week's time and then erase them.

It's just the setup for season pass and getting the original (new) recordings recorded and the setup process not taking any longer than the current Passport time now problem that were reported...ugh.
...thanks for the input once again!

I do the same thing that you do Gparris,

In fact, on Passport, I don't use the Series Manager because I like to have individual control over each recording. But different people have different needs for the Series Manager. I don't really want to comment too much about a specific function of Navigator or Navigator with DVR as this issue relates. (Because my box hasn't been changed over.) However, I do think that there should be something in the literature about Navigator that the default for recording series episodes is 3 per series. and you have to select "Record Series With Options" to change the default from 3 episodes to your selected choice per series.

Jack

[gparris]

Jack 1000:
I think once Navigator for the DVRs starts coming out, that song you wrote will not be the only thing said out of subscriber's mouths:
-It won't sound like Christmas Carols, that's for certain.:(

But your reporting and information has been great, keep it up!

[Jack 1000]

For those of you who live near Milwaukee or Wauwatosa,

Do you remember when TWC had training classes on how to use DVR when it first came out? You could go to the Mayfair Mall and take them. They should consider doing the same for Navigator when it gets rolled out to all of the Wisconsin area. The Answers on Demand Channel (Channel 1999) has good information on the basic features of the current guide system, (still Passport here.) But it doesn't go far enough into detail to satisfy the user who may be looking at more intermediate operation or troubleshooting help.

A Getting Started With Navigator Guide may also help. TWC does offer a Navigator section at its SE Wisconsin Website:

http://www.timewarnercable.com/milwaukee/

Click on where it says, "Navigator New!" and you will be taken to several screens that you can print. It's OK, but could be better.

Speaking of the Answers on Demand (AOD) channel, (1999 in TWC Milwaukee areas,) am I correct that ALL of the information on this channel will be changing when Navigator gets downloaded onto the boxes?

It may be a good idea to E-mail TWC asking if they plan to offer training classes for Navigator and/or a flier that goes into more detail about the functions and features of the new Program Guide.

Jack

[gparris]

Good ideas, Jack 1000, but no...no way.

I visited a few offices and mall kiosks of TWC and no one had a clue as to what was going on (big surprise).:rolleyes:

They knew what Navigator was, but that was about it....nada, nothing...clueless!

TWC will dump it on unsuspecting DVR subs without any more notice and it will be every TWC subscriber to themselves, honestly.
We will be the Beta-test guinea pigs like TWC Nebraska and many dozens of TWC subs will flee to their local TWC offices and return their DVRs and probably, dump their service.

What we can do here in this forum, is continue to allow others to notice that it is coming and what to do when it does (ugh!) arrive and assist this way.:D

[kevbeck122]

Channel 1999 - AOD is specific to Navigator on my 4250HDC. If anyone has an 8300HDC, they can check as well and it will probably be Navigator specific. I'm sure the channel will switch to Navigator on the Passport boxes once they dump Navigator on them.

[Jack 1000]

Good ideas, Jack 1000, but no...no way.

I visited a few offices and mall kiosks of TWC and no one had a clue as to what was going on (big surprise).:rolleyes:

They knew what Navigator was, but that was about it....nada, nothing...clueless!

TWC will dump it on unsuspecting DVR subs without any more notice and it will be every TWC subscriber to themselves, honestly.
We will be the Beta-test guinea pigs like TWC Nebraska and many dozens of TWC subs will flee to their local TWC offices and return their DVRs and probably, dump their service.

What we can do here in this forum, is continue to allow others to notice that it is coming and what to do when it does (ugh!) arrive and assist this way.:D

I actually have seen a FEW PDF files on a Navigator starter booklet at some TWC state sites, but they probably wouldn't have any more information than what is offered on the Answers on Demand channel now.

Jack

[gparris]

Thanks, I have to say that I enjoy the new and different, but not at my expense such as my cable bill and now the DVR service is going from $7.95 to $8.50 per box per month, too.
If Navigator had good reports from it on the DVR side from other TWC locations, it wouldn't be so frightening.
We forum folks are more technology minded and most subs aren't, even if they have HDTVs and got them hooked up with the correct STBs, cabling and even a surround audio setup.
I hope TWC is testing the software and informs us of any possible bugs before it is launched upon us.:D

[Jack 1000]

It was mentioned that TWC is rolling out Navigator by box model number. For references, what are the CURRENT OCAP box manufactures serviced through Time Warner and what are the known LEGACY non-OCAP boxes that are "in the field?"

I know that for DVR in Milwaukee they are all Scientific Atlanta (SA) units. (The AVS Forum had reported some States had Moterola DVR's, but they had problems in the labs.) Other than that, the legacy boxes as I understand are Pioneer (the oldest box), Pace (newer), and Scientific Atlanta. (newest) I don't think there are Moterolla DVR's here. Are the new non-DVR boxes, (The ones where Navigator was test downloaded to last January) in Milwaukee all SA units? Did they finish those downloads in January to each of the legacy SA boxes, or stop the downloads of Navigator on them,when it was learned of the problems in other markets, primarily Lincon Nebraska?

Last Spring when I called TWC about Navigator's rollout I got the response that the oldest boxes (The Pioneer units) were being done LAST because of them being the oldest models. The plan was to do the DVR boxes first, than I believe it was the non-DVR SA boxes (newest models first.) than the Pace's (newest models first.) Than finishing with the Pioneer's. I also got the same form e-mail that was mentioned about Navigator's rollout last year discussed above.

AFAIK, other than the new OCAP units having Navigator, (DVR C boxes and non DVR C-boxes) I do not recall ANY other boxes besides those non-OCAP SA models being Navigatored since January-March of last year. What is interesting, is that someone reported that their HD Pioneer box (post is on this forum) got Navigator, and the only complaint was that the "Preview Pane" was blank. Now this is a GOOD thing, because if the lesser memory legacy boxes can handle Navigator, the more memory DVR's might have more success because of the additional memory. If the CABLE CARDS in these new boxes are the main culprit, with regards to how Navigator reacts with them, and the legacy boxes are able to remove the cable card conflict, we could FINALLY be on to some positives with this new software.

There was a post reported on the AVS forum from a user in another state. They claim TWC said when Navigator was tested on the different model boxes in their labs, it behaved well on 97% of the models tested. (I think that's way too high, maybe more like 40%!) But TWC did say that there are about 40 different models of boxes and DVR's serviced by them throughout the USA. Navigator has been horror on the models that they did not specifically test.

I talked about this on the AVS forums, and that is why when they rollout a new OS like this, it's more than the box or DVR that's involved. It's the age of the head-end equipment, how often the head-end equipment is updated, the quality of the call/communication centers, the skill (or lack of same) by the programmers and field techs, the speed of data transfer, the age of the boxes/DVR's, EVEN WHAT THE BOX OR DVR IS DOING WHEN THE UPGRADE IS APPLIED MAY ALL FACTOR INTO THIS. The example that I used is an alphabet continuum, where as each letter:

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ represents a quality check point that Navigator or any new IPG applied to the cable system must pass to achieve above average status. If the early designers of this project would have know what they were doing, we could have been at the letter V by now. The problem was that TWC on a national level was so sure that the "new and cool technolgy" would just take care of itself. They believed that somehow, some automatic updates would solve the problem last year, and released this thing at about a letter D, when it had no business being deployed at that time.

So the big questions are:

1.) How many of those alphabet check points have been tested before the rollout to legacy boxes and DVR's begins?

2.) What are the credentials of the people doing the testing? (I am being serious here.)

3.) How well does the head end and their communications network get updated and tested to handle the change over? It appears that so many divisions of TWC are at different stages of this "alphabet test phase," which might explain why there is so much fluctuation in Navigator's performance from market to market.

Jack

[kevbeck122]

As far as I know, the only boxes they're currently offering are SAs. Whatever is still out there (Pioneer, Pace, SA) will still work, but all replacements will be SA if the box needs to be replaced AFAIK. I had the Pace box early last year and got Navigator probably about a month after getting the box. I really wonder how well it runs on the Pioneer boxes. I remember Passport being very slow on HD channels when I had a Pioneer box. With the Pace box everything was good until the Navigator upgrade when frequent reboots had to be done, channel changes were very slow, the guide had issues. I'm having the exact same problems with the SA4250... except this box takes 3-15 minutes to boot up if I have to do a reboot. The signal coming in my house is very good, so I know that's not the problem.

[Jack 1000]

Thought I would share this reply from TWC when I e-mailed them to ask when Navigator would be forced on us here in Kenosha.

Thank you for writing to Time Warner Cable.

Time Warner Cable is upgrading the software in all of our converters to the new Navigator system which will enhance your television viewing. This upgrade is being performed one converter model at a time to insure its completion without any problems. While the upgrade is taking longer than expected, our programmers are working as quickly as possible to bring this new service to all of our Customers. You will not need to exchange your cable converter to receive the upgraded software. The upgrade is slated to be completed before 12/31/07. Your patience in the mean time is greatly appreciated.

How's everyone doing with their boxes? Nothing new here yet, except the Caller ID on TV for my Passport box is reduced from its regular size. Anything different or unusual for anybody else?

Jack

[Jack 1000]

On January 30th, according to the TWC Wisconsin Website, TWC is removing the Answers on Demand Channels (1998-Spanish), (1999) for its line up. This would appear to indicate that Navigator will be in place by that time for everyone. :o

I wonder if they are doing this to free up bandwidth or just to remove all Passport information from the system? AOD could have been helpful for Navigator information. Does TWC have to renew its licensing fees with Passport, as they have chosen not to do, in order to carry that channel? Do you think it could be a bandwidth issue or something else?

Jack

[gparris]

Answers on Demand, like all other On-Demand channels, are like SDV (in a way), as these channels take up no bandwidth, until your cable box requests them.
If TWC wanted to add bandwidth, it would require knowledgeable personnel that could do it, but obviously they haven't got them yet:
We would have those other dozen HD channels being added that are still missing here that are available in almost every other TWC location in the country, by now.

As for Navigator, they want to add on other features and don't want to pay Aptiv for it, they think it's "cheaper" from them to do it themselves.
But as subscribers leave in droves for other providers because "Crapagator" gets them angry, that so-called "cost savings" on that will disappear really fast.;)

[Cheesehead Dave]

I finally got tired of all the stuttering video and freezes from my 8300HD box, so I stopped by TWC-Kenosha this afternoon to trade it in. I got an 8300HDC in its place, and it came pre-installed with the new software.

After plugging it in and scratching my head over why I couldn't hear anything, I realized that I specifically had to go into the settings menu and specify that I was solely using HDMI for audio.

The new remote they game me is inoperative. Good thing I still have the old one, as well as the Harmony.

The box takes forever to boot up, at least five minutes.

I haven't had time to fully explore the software yet, but I can say that it does seem slower than before. Sometimes I'll press a button and nothing will seem to happen. I'll press a couple other things and still nothing will happen. Then suddenly, it turns out the box was buffering all my button presses as everything gets executed.

The new menus are a bit jarring, especially after being used to the old ones for so long. They are considerably easier to read, thanks to the new font.

On the plus side, there's an option to have black bars on the sides of the screen instead of grey when viewing 4:3 shows. Also, it looks like I can easily sort my recorded shows by title and not just by date.

The box has Firewire ports on the back; I'll have to check out the instructions in the AVS forums and see if I can get them to send video to my computer.

Except for the lag issue, so far I'm giving it a cautious thumbs up. We'll see what it's like after I get a few shows recorded and it has to deal with conflicts.

Edit: Here come the bugs...

Bug #1: When viewing any 720p channels, if I jump to the channel guide, then exit, the picture doesn't go back to full screen; it stays the size and position of the preview window in the upper right corner. I have to switch channels and switch back to get full screen back.

Bug #2: When watching a recorded show, I can't see the time bar at the bottom. When I hit the info button, all the window shows is "Off air: 9:00 am - 1:00 pm" with no timer. So there's no way to see how far into a recorded show you are.

[gparris]

No "thumbs up" for me at all...it all sucks big time with Crapagator:

"After plugging it in and scratching my head over why I couldn't hear anything, I realized that I specifically had to go into the settings menu and specify that I was solely using HDMI for audio."

-TWC could "spare the time" and preset it for digital audio output via toslink?
-Great way to start off!:rolleyes:

"The box takes forever to boot up, at least five minutes."

No way, especially for "advanced" tech today, my computer boots faster than that...get with the "program", TWC.

"Bug #1: When viewing any 720p channels, if I jump to the channel guide, then exit, the picture doesn't go back to full screen; it stays the size and position of the preview window in the upper right corner. I have to switch channels and switch back to get full screen back."

I would want to set it to 1080i for all output, if Crapagator "allows" it.

"Bug #2: When watching a recorded show, I can't see the time bar at the bottom. When I hit the info button, all the window shows is "Off air: 9:00 am - 1:00 pm" with no timer. So there's no way to see how far into a recorded show you are."

TWC: It's like this:
You had good operation with Passport, this is a DOWNGRADE: You want to see how far the recording's playback is!

DON'T you WANT us to WANT DVRs?:confused:

Thanks for input, Cheesehead Dave:

Now I know its going to be a battle with the DVRs once Navigator is installed and I think if this is its final release:
It is time for refunds on the DVR service @$8.50/month per box until they fix it!:mad:

[Cheesehead Dave]

I would want to set it to 1080i for all output, if Crapagator "allows" it.
I do have it set like that. Doesn't make any difference.

Edit: Upon further review, after I was playing around and pulled the HDMI cable out and plugged it back in, the box auto-detected it. Now, many of the audio and video settings screens say "This cannot be manually set when using HDMI or DVI."

In other words, now I can't force 1080i output from the box, so every channel change now forces the TV to have to change resolutions. http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/ubb/mad.gif

[gparris]

Gee, thanks again for the info...I'm not blaming the sender (you).:D

It just keeps on getting worse, not better, having TWC for cableTV, lately.:(

I am trying to document these details and when TWC Wisconsin dumps Crapagator on unsuspecting DVR subscribers and these problems, amongst others still persist...(well, you know the rest).

[kevbeck122]

I do have it set like that. Doesn't make any difference.

Edit: Upon further review, after I was playing around and pulled the HDMI cable out and plugged it back in, the box auto-detected it. Now, many of the audio and video settings screens say "This cannot be manually set when using HDMI or DVI."

In other words, now I can't force 1080i output from the box, so every channel change now forces the TV to have to change resolutions. http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/ubb/mad.gif

I know you don't want to hear this.. switch to component and some of your problems will be solved. It stays at the resolution you have set, and it brings the full picture back when closing the guide. I saw both of those problems when I used HDMI.

[gparris]

kevbeck122: Thanks!
Same here, I always use component video with the 8300HDs and those with HD STBs w/o DVRs because it just behaves better and no one says they can see the difference.
Avoid as many irritations a possible and it's 1080i (or 720p) output, anyway.

STBs as the H20/HR20s seem to work well with AVRs and HDMI, but then again, that is another provider, too (Directv).:D

[Jack 1000]

Does anyone know how long the Navigator download is supposed to last? I have heard between 1-2 hours sometime between 2-4am on the day of transfer?

Jack

[gparris]

Jack 1000:
You mean for the original, initial transfering over of TWC Wisconsin's Crapagator programming, thereby dumping out the Aptiv Passport (you know, the programming that works good)?:confused:

FYI: I tried searching for the word "Navigator" at this TWC location today and found it missing from their site: They don't have Navigator, yet this TWC location offers many HD channels we do NOT get:

http://www.timewarnercable.com/SouthCarolina/products/HDTVAvailableChannels.html

I count TEN HD channels that TWC Wisconsin does NOT have, that this TWC location has WITHOUT Navigator as the "solution":

-So next time some story-teller from TWC Wisconsin tells you otherwise ("its a requirement"), don't believe them!

[Jack 1000]

Some very interesting information for you guys at the AVS Navigator forum: (You should all bookmark this forum page.)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=723830&pp=30&highlight=journal&page=96

It suggests if you look at the recent posts within, that many people who have Sara with the new HDC boxes, that these subs are reporting the same problems that have been discussed with Navigator. It could be that the issues that are causing the problems may not so much be Navigator itself, but the integrated C-boxes with the cable cards in them. I submitted that some cable systems may be better at integrating the new C boxes than others. The same is true with Navigator's performance, which appears to fluctuate from division to division. BUT there are some questions/issues to consider:

1.) Is the fluctuation in Navigator's performance due to the head end of a designated cable system not being compliant to receive SDV technology? Has anyone had problems with a Sara or Passport IPG on a C-model box? If so, the problem may be more C-box related than software related, whereas Navigator may not be the culprit that it is made out to be.

2.) I encourage everyone to investigate and question all issues relating to a cable systems' functionality. What we really need for comparison analysis is to see how well (or not well) Passport functions on an integrated (C-Card) box. The same is true for the Sara systems. (Sara as I understand it is Scientific Atlanta's integrated IPG.) I understand about that about 60% of TWC nationwide uses Sara, which already supports SDV capability. (So in theory, TWC would not have to upgrade the Sara IPG's to Navigator.) The main issue with Passport, is that without paying outside vendors for software updates, it does not support SDV capability. However, Navigator and Sara are currently SDV compliant.

3.) The big test is going to be the level of success of the DVR/Non DVR legacy box Navigator rollouts. We haven't heard any Lincoln Nebraska horror stories for awhile, but do not know why. FYI, this was the first city to get Navigator last fall with DEPLORABLE HORRIFYING RESULTS. Have they worked out the bugs in this area, or have people just "given up?"

What do you all think?

Jack

[kevbeck122]

I don't understand why they say Passport is not compatible with SDV when you can get any SDV channel on a Passport box. If Passport isn't compatible, why not switch to SARA? It's made by SA, and most of our boxes are SA... therefore it should rid us of all of the issues we're having.

[LoadStar]

I don't understand why they say Passport is not compatible with SDV when you can get any SDV channel on a Passport box. If Passport isn't compatible, why not switch to SARA? It's made by SA, and most of our boxes are SA... therefore it should rid us of all of the issues we're having.

Hah. Talk to anyone who has had to deal with SARA. Navigator is actually an UPGRADE from that aborted piece of trash. It's horrible, no two ways about it. Passport remains the best OS available for the Scientific Atlanta and Pioneer set-top terminals.

[gparris]

Aptiv Passport is why I left Directv for TWC service-only as the interface with the combination HD box and DVR at the initial lease price was wonderful.
Now with the lack of HD channel additions, ever higher lease pricing and Navigator coming in, TWC cableTV service is becoming a nightmare once again.:mad:

[Jack 1000]

We are coming up on December 31, which was the completion date that a user in Kenosha received for the roll out to his DVR. No notices yet for me or anything. Answers on Demand is leaving on January 30th, which is Passport related. Note that some other areas with Navigator have a help screen on Channel 1. Channel 1 here is a combination of AOD help videos and local based community programing, (such as TWC Hang Tough ("say no to drugs") campaign. The video information on that channel is very very old as is some of the locally based videos. I wonder if they plan to move Navigator help to that channel and just not call it Answers on Demand?

I know all of you hate being in the dark about this stuff! I am making progress with watching my DVR recordings and getting prepared for when "it" happens. Have any of you guys heard anything new? Make sure that you watch all your saved recordings! Have you noticed any other unusual box behavior such as frequent reboots that may suggest, Navigator could be here at any time?

Jack

[gparris]

Many times we get no really big notification about anything rolling out on a specific date from TWC locally unless you read about it in the JS from Tim C.
Sometimes you get information from the website or it just happens on your TV screen like the smalller icons for Caller ID.
It sort of freaks me out everytime I turn on my HDTV set:
-I don't know if my microdisplay bulb is about to pop in the set
-Or TWC has done something (good or bad).:(

[Jack 1000]

Many times we get no really big notification about anything rolling out on a specific date from TWC locally unless you read about it in the JS from Tim C.
Sometimes you get information from the website or it just happens on your TV screen like the smaller icons for Caller ID.
It sort of freaks me out every time I turn on my HDTV set:
-I don't know if my microdisplay bulb is about to pop in the set
-Or TWC has done something (good or bad).:(

Thanks GP,

Yea, did anyone contact TWC about the smaller icons in the TV Caller ID? I can't even read incoming calls anymore and have to go to channel 199 to see who called. I hope that if this is related to Navigator, that when Navigator's Caller UD comes on TV that they put it back to the size it used to be.

Jack

[gparris]

Jack 1000:
No, haven't had the chance since TWC advertised it so long ago and at that time it wasn't even available yet.
Then when Caller ID came about, it wasn't even mentioned anywhere, including bills or website:
It isn't in my mind much, anymore...I DO like my brother's Caller ID on his Directv system, however (with his TWC Digital Phone).

Recently, I was calling about deleting services (cableTV-wise) to lower my bill and that was fun enough since that alone took talking to three people and the call lasted almost an hour!:eek:

[Kenoman]

Well here it is Jan 2 and if you remember my post of an email I received from TWC that Navigator would be up and running in Kenosha by Dec. 31. NOT!
I guess it just goes to show you that TWC can't be trusted to give it's customers accurate information.
I do know that Navigator is on all the SA8300HDC boxes that they are currently giving out here in Kenosha.
I also noticed that my SA8300HD seems to be re-booting more frequently lately. Don't know if that means anything but it does erase all caller id calls on channel 199.

[Jack 1000]

Well here it is Jan 2 and if you remember my post of an email I received from TWC that Navigator would be up and running in Kenosha by Dec. 31. NOT!
I guess it just goes to show you that TWC can't be trusted to give it's customers accurate information.
I do know that Navigator is on all the SA8300HDC boxes that they are currently giving out here in Kenosha.
I also noticed that my SA8300HD seems to be re-booting more frequently lately. Don't know if that means anything but it does erase all caller id calls on channel 199.

Hi Kenoman,

Happy New Year!! Be careful what you wish for with Navigator, you may get it! LOL! My box generally likes to reboot about 4-6am sometime during that time. (But not everyday) I did have a fast reboot around 9pm a few days ago but nothing unique or unusual. The only thing that I don't like is the shrunken Caller ID on TV. I have to stand close to the screen to read it, or go to Channel 199 to see who called! My experience is that when the box reboots, whether it does it itself, or you do it, the Caller's List on channel 199 gets erased each time.

When Navigator comes, and if the Caller ID on TV is still small like it is now, I will send a feedback form to ask TWC to put it back to its original size or offer a prompt on Channel 199 to change the size. (I don't know if this has to do with the Navigator change-over, or if people thought it was too big!) Now, you need a microscope to see it!

Jack

[gparris]

Yeah, be very careful of what you wish for.
Friends of mine had Passport for some time with their DVR, but now that they are getting a HDTV (with my assistance and setup), they will have to swap it out for the HD DVR and it will have Navigator in it by default...ouch!

[kevbeck122]

Mine froze again today... 12 minutes to reboot. I'm thinking it may be defective, but if not, that is very unacceptable.

As far as the download time - when I first got my box, there was a letter inside that said I was supposed to hook the box up and let it sit for up to 30 minutes so that it could download something. I'm not sure if that meant the entire Navigator OS or what, but it did take 10-20 minutes to complete whatever it was doing.

[gparris]

kevbeck122:
Are all of the standard HD boxes are now using Navigator?
Or is it just the boxes with the "C" at the end, like yours has?
In any event:
-Navigator is not fixed as to boot up time and you are one of the paying "guinea pigs" of TWC Wisconsin...great.:bang:

[Cheesehead Dave]

Interesting update...

Turns out my HDC box doesn't have the Navigator software... It actually has Mystro.

I was having problems recording shows (I was getting "Channel not available" errors in the recording log) and called TWC support. While waiting for the box to reboot, I asked about Navigator. She said that right now, it's primarily the Pioneer boxes that are being updated. The updates for SA boxes may not be complete until March.

[kevbeck122]

kevbeck122:
Are all of the standard HD boxes are now using Navigator?
Or is it just the boxes with the "C" at the end, like yours has?
In any event:
-Navigator is not fixed as to boot up time and you are one of the paying "guinea pigs" of TWC Wisconsin...great.:bang:

I don't know for sure.. I saw someone on here that had a Pioneer box that got it. Pace boxes probably have it (mine got Navigator early last year.. then I traded it for an 8300HD with Passport). All of the HDC boxes have it.

Interesting update...

Turns out my HDC box doesn't have the Navigator software... It actually has Mystro.

Mystro is Navigator. The full name is Mystro Digital Navigator.

[Jack 1000]

Interesting update...

Turns out my HDC box doesn't have the Navigator software... It actually has Mystro.

I was having problems recording shows (I was getting "Channel not available" errors in the recording log) and called TWC support. While waiting for the box to reboot, I asked about Navigator. She said that right now, it's primarily the Pioneer boxes that are being updated. The updates for SA boxes may not be complete until March.

Assuming that the SA boxes include the DVR's, this could be a good thing. Maybe they are really taking their time with this to avoid another Lincoln Nebraska debacle. Do you guys feel the same way? Sounds like that E-mail correspondent guy who said December 31st, may have been an idiot, or else he could have been given misleading information. The Pioneer boxes, you may recall, have the least memory and are the oldest models. Perhaps a cautious sense of optimism that if they can get the crap out of Navigator and get it working on those low memory Pioneer boxes, the DVR's (the NON-C DVR's, I should be specific here.) might work fine.

It makes you wonder if the C-boxes really could be the culprit in all of this?

Jack

PS. I e-mailed TWC asking what makes Navigator better than Passport? (I know I will get the canned "enhanced viewing experience bs.") But, I also asked when the download to DVR's may begin. I want to see if these people are in synch with their answers...yea right! LOL!

[gparris]

Aptiv's Passport does not offer all the features required for SDV as does TWC's in-house programming, Navigator, according to all the reports I have read in avsforums.
Now, Aptiv could (probably) add what TWC wants for programming features, but TWC does not want to "wait or pay for it", according to what I have read.
It is better for TWC to "take the chance", as I understand it, to dump Navigator on unsuspecting paying subscribers and let them be the "guinea pigs", instead, hoping they won't leave or cancel service altogether before it gets "fixed" so its operation - and - speed - will parallel that of Passport.

Well, TWC, that has not happened, has it?

Why don't you "pony up" the Aptiv charges and get the job done right the first time?;)

[kevbeck122]

I just swapped my box for a 3250HD with the non OCAP version of Navigator.. we'll see how that goes. So far things are somewhat better, though the guide and banners look horrible compared to the 4250.

[Jack 1000]

I just swapped my box for a 3250HD with the non OCAP version of Navigator.. we'll see how that goes. So far things are somewhat better, though the guide and banners look horrible compared to the 4250.

This is an SA box right? (The 3250)

Jack

[kevbeck122]

Yeah it is.

[kevbeck122]

This is much better on the 3250HD, other than the low-res graphics of course. They must have most of the bugs worked out of the standard version of Navigator. Unless my other box was really defective, I don't think the programmers at TWC know how to program in the OCAP environment very well (which is basically just Java I think).

[Jack 1000]

Guys,

If you already have Navigator, you should go and fill out the TWC Wisconsin survey about its functions and performance here:

http://www.timewarnercable.com/milwaukee/navigator/mdn_survey.html

As TWC Navigator's change is ongoing and they are always updating to work out the bugs, you guys should comment about your likes and dislikes with it.

Glad that the non-OCAP boxes seem to be working better!

Jack

[Jack 1000]

Navigator News:

The latest for us in Wisconsin, is that all areas should have the new guide by the end of first quarter. Here is the e-mail response I got from TWC: (They are saying that the DVR's will be last to be changed.)

*************************************************

Thank you for writing Time Warner.

Our goal is to have all Passport changed to the Navigator by the end of this quarter. The DVR boxes are the last to upgrade.

The Navigator system at this time will automatically change the Aspect Ratio depending on what channel you tune to. It also has enhanced graphics and menu searches for programming. It has a Audio feature to level the sound between commercials, programming and channels.

We will have the capability to upgrade the Navigator system and make changes as time progresses. We will have more control over the features.

If you have anymore questions we can help you with please let us know. We will be happy to further assist you.

Thank you for choosing Time Warner Cable.

*************************************************

Jack

[flash]

It has a Audio feature to level the sound between commercials, programming and channels.



Now seeing that advertising dollars pays for shows........ do you really believe that they will turn the volume down on loud commercials that are supposed to get your attention from the other room???????

[LuckySe7ens]

Now seeing that advertising dollars pays for shows........ do you really believe that they will turn the volume down on loud commercials that are supposed to get your attention from the other room???????

Now seeing that advertising dollars pay for shows..... do you really believe that they will allow you to fast forward through commercials?

[flash]

Now seeing that advertising dollars pay for shows..... do you really believe that they will allow you to fast forward through commercials?
The older types of DVR's would allow you to skip commercials by the press of a button. Now you have to FF to get past them. What's next........ slow FF and then they'll probably make us watch them real time while still allowing us FF through parts of the shows we don't want to see.:bang:

TV manufacturers have had a form of volume levelers for a long time but they never really worked for really loud commercials. There is a ton of petitions out on the web to try and stop the loud commercials. Since I am a TWC customer, I would more than welcome the cessation of loud commercial nonsense but it sounds like I will get a form of DVR software that everyone hates with it.
fwiw

[Tom Snyder]

types of DVR's would allow you to skip commercials by the press of a button.I know this is a Navigator thread, but my D* remote has a button that advances 30 seconds. For the past few seasons, I record the Packer games on Sundays, do stuff around the house until an hour into the game, then sit down with my MGD and Nachos. I hit the button three times whenever they go to commercial (hit it 4 times at the end of a quarter)... only manually fast forward through halftime. Recorded game gets over about the same time as the live game, replace watching commercials with getting a few chores done.

Wife loves it... NFL sponsors hate it. ;)

[oz]

The Navigator system at this time will automatically change the Aspect Ratio depending on what channel you tune to.

What does this mean? Will Navigator stretch 004 but put black bars on non-HD content on 504?

[Jack 1000]

What does this mean? Will Navigator stretch 004 but put black bars on non-HD content on 504?

Oz,

Not sure on this one, as I don't have Navigator yet. I do know that Navigator gives you more audio/video settings to customize your TV preferences and that the gray bars that a lot of people didn't like on HD channels with Passport are now black.

Jack

[mhz40]

I know this is a Navigator thread, but my D* remote has a button that advances 30 seconds. For the past few seasons, I record the Packer games on Sundays, do stuff around the house until an hour into the game, then sit down with my MGD and Nachos. I hit the button three times whenever they go to commercial (hit it 4 times at the end of a quarter)... only manually fast forward through halftime. Recorded game gets over about the same time as the live game, replace watching commercials with getting a few chores done.

Wife loves it... NFL sponsors hate it. ;)
I have the same feature. It's great during the game too... a 30 second skip right after the play takes you to the next snap. Its a great tool when the only other option is to listen to Bryant Gumbel's play analysis...

[Jack 1000]

All of you should sign up (or at least check out) the discussion about the new Navigator and the recent developments about the problems with the FCC mandate concerning cable cards on the new C-boxes. I pose some questions and issues over there, (registered as Satch Man) and the information is VERY INTERESTING. You Navigator users should join! We need more comments/users from Wisconsin who are interested in discussing Navigator's performance on OCAP (C-boxes) against Navigator performing on NON-OCAP (non-C boxes), through a software download.

The research indicated, suggests that the problems could be more related to the C-boxes themselves, rather than Navigator.

Some of you, with non-C boxes, may have Navigator on Pioneer models and maybe SA as well. The DVR units (non-C) as I posted above are scheduled to be completed before the end of March. Here is the link to the discussion:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=723830&pp=30&highlight=journal&page=105

Jack

[Jack 1000]

Well,

According to the gathered information, we are about a month away give or take a few weeks from the Passport to Navigator change over. We have seen OK performance on the NON-C SA boxes (non-DVR's) Reports are that TWC staffers have Navigator on non-C DVR's but have not reported anything. Has anyone been able to contact any head techs through "who they know" to give us info on how the non-C DVR change over is going? Am I correct that ALL of the non-DVR boxes have been converted? This would be the SA's, Pioneer's, and Pace's.

While there are still issues with Navigator, there have certainly been improvements over the disasters of a year ago. How well (or not well) do you think the rollout will go? If the problems are minimal, do you believe that we can start attributing many of the issues to the C-boxes?

My view is that there will be some issues, but not as bad as some may be anticipating. I am NOT ready to take the Crap out of Navigator yet by any means! But the performance on the non-C boxes will indicate to us, exactly how much the cable cards may be a problem.

For those with any non-C boxes who have been converted, how are things going?

Jack

[kevbeck122]

For the most part everything is still pretty good. I occasionally get "Please Wait" when going into the guide and sometimes the box is unresponsive/slow when trying to use the remote. It's still not as bad as the C box.

[gyoung]

I recently moved to Indianapolis with cable service being provided by Brighthouse Networks (close cousin to TW). The new installation included the Scientific Atlanta 8300HDC with the Mystro software.

Coming from Milwaukee I have had experience with the 8300HD with the Passport software. For a temporary time I had the 8300HD in Indy with the SARA software and now have the 8300HDC with the Mystro software.

Comparing the 3, I would rank them in this order.


Passport 8300HD
Mystro 8300HDC
SARA 8300HD
The SARA software was by far the worst.

SARA didn't have any of the following features


Recording by NEW episodes only
When fast forwarding through a commercial it wouldn't automatically fall 10 seconds or so back when you hit play, so you would always overshoot into the show
Terrible series management
Comparing the Mystro to the Passport here are the differences/similarities I have noted so far.


Passport allows the ability to change the priority of recordings, so far in Mystro I haven't figured out how to do that.
Passport seems "little" quicker in it's response time. The Mystro is not bad, but I think the Passport seemed quicker.
My overall impression of the Mystro software is that it is trying to duplicate the Passport software and is pretty close to doing that. I haven't had any problems with the 8300HDC not recording series or programs

[kevbeck122]

They must have upped the resolution of the graphics on the legacy boxes... the guide and banners look great now on my 3250.

[Jack 1000]

Are you seeing or hearing anything as we get closer to the end of March plan for the conversion? I wonder if we will get a mailer, an automated call, both or neither? The Answers on Demand channel is gone. For me, I haven't seen more DVR rebooting or anything that much different. I have been watching my saved DVR recordings and getting DVD transfers of what I want to keep.

I know that TWC is going by box model number for the change over, but what about location? I wonder how many boxes or DVR's they are doing at one time?

All of us are waiting for the first report of a non-C DVR with Navigator in this area. Speaking of DVR's, what are the model numbers that they have to do? I only know of the SA 8000 and the SA 8300?

Jack

[TurboAWD]

Been a while since I posted here, but with some recent experiences with Navigator, I just had to come and see what people were saying about it in this little community.

First, I should explain my set-ups:
1) Old Pioneer HD (non-DVR) box in bedroom
2) 18 month old SA8300HD DVR in living room
3) Brand new SA8300HDC DVR in basement

The Pioneer box was downgraded to Navigator way back in October or November 2007, and we immediately hated it. Just knowing how ugly and slow it is on that box has made us live in fear of the day the SA8300HD in our living room is downgraded.

On Thursday Feb 21, we stopped at the Southridge TWC store and picked up a second SA8300HD box, the new "C" box. Upon installing it in the basement and starting to use it, my fears were immediately realized. It's horrible. Luckily in reading this thread yesterday, I learned the TWC had set-up a user survey on their SE WI site, and I stated my opinions in detail. The following is what I posted, and it will stand as my personal observations on Navigator's shortcomings, specifcally versus the Aptiv software, which I found to be nearly flawless. This is long, but I think it's more comprehensive than anything I've read in this thread and I'd like to see what other people think/have observed, too, and would urge everyone to complete the survey.

Here's what I told TWC:

My wife and I basically hate Navigator and we thought the Aptiv interface was wonderful. Navigator should have used Aptiv as the baseline for interface and functions and built up from there. Here's some specific things we do not like about Navigator.

> Navigator first showed up on our bedroom cable box (older Pioneer HD box, non-DVR) and the first thing we noticed was the bland appearence versus the Aptiv software.

> Navigator performs much slower. Everything from channel changes, accessing the program guide and accessing menus is sluggish and slow to respond to remote control inputs.

> When viewing the program guide, we almost always lose the video in the upper right preview window.

> The ability to find shows is TERRIBLE. One of the great things the Aptiv software allowed was the ability to find shows right out of the program guide. When you were on a particular show in the guide, all you had to do was click "C" for Search, and all the other airings of that show would come up. Next to the listing, you had the keypad to allow title & keyword searching. The Navigator software automatically displays a useless alphabetical list and your only option is to begin a title search by typing in the letters. This is one of the worst issues with Navigator, especially with a DVR and setting up recordings.

> We just picked up a third box a few days ago (SA 8300HDC - this is in addition to the Pioneer box in our bedroom and an SA 8300HD running Aptiv in the living room.) It took about 5 minutes to start seeing problems with the Navigator software in relation to the DVR functionality, too.

> When fast-forwarding or re-winding through a recorded show, you don't get a progress bar on the bottom of the screen. You can't even just click the Play button to show where you're at in the program. In fact, instead of this time display, Navigator displays an enormous banner at the bottom of the screen showing the channel and a show title. Although even THAT's a problem, because when I was watching an episode of King of Queens I had recorded earlier in the day, this banner correctly showed WTBS as the channel, but the program title it displayed was some Spanish show title, possible a title of a show that had aired on one of the Spanish-language channels - who knows.

> Navigator's recording options are not as flexible as Aptiv's, either, specifically in regards to setting up series recording. More specifically, it does not allow you to set series recordings for only a single channel, nor does it allow you to set series recordings only for a single time/airing. For example, I normally record the Daily Show and Colbert Report airings at 12:00 midnight and 12:30 AM, respectively on Comedy Central. However, Comedy Central airs these shows several times during the day. Even my Aptiv box could not tell which airings were new or reruns, so I simply set my Aptiv DVR to record only these airings, whether they were new or reruns. On the new Navigator DVR, since I can't tell it to record only the one airing of each show, the DVR recorded ALL airings of both shows during the course of a day. This creates numerous duplicate recordings of the same show.

> On top of the previous problem, because Navigator is so slow, just going through and deleting all these duplicate recordings is a huge chore.

> Finally, another situation where Navigator's slowness rears it's head is when setting up recordings (mainly series), when Navigator takes an enormous amount of time just setting the recordings you input.

At first, I thought the slow operation of Navigator (on our old Pioneer box) was related to the age of the box. But it's only marginally quicker on my brand new SA 8300HDC box. For the time being, Aptiv is still running on my living room box, and having the ability to experience both applications almost side-by-side truly shows off the shortcomings of Navigator. It seems that a lot of effort was put into giving Navigator some interesting functions (through the A-B-C-D buttons in particular) but I find most of these functions of no use on a daily basis, whereas the problems I detailed above are things I'm going to be running into constantly.

I'm very, very unhappy with Navigator. I see no reason why Navigator could not be improved, and although I'm not a software developer, I would think that fixing all the problems I've detailed could be done fairly easily. If that's the case, and these fixes are in the works, then I will try to be patient and wait for these fixes. But if this doesn't happen, I may be forced to look at my other options for television services.


Thanks for reading - let's see some more posts regarding specific likes (if there are any) and dislikes of Navigator.

[gparris]

My next-door neighbours are about to discover Navigator as they switch from an 8000 SD DVR box to the 8300HDC, now that they have a new Sony 60A3000.

-Thanks, Jimboy for the recommendation!:wave:

I have warned them about Navigator and made of list of the few TWC-available HD channels from TWC Wisconsin.

If they cannot "stomach" the lousy operation of it, I have the Directv phone number and website handy for their installation at $99 for their first HD DVR box and a much reduced payTV billing with triple the HD channels!;)

[Jack 1000]

Been a while since I posted here, but with some recent experiences with Navigator, I just had to come and see what people were saying about it in this little community.

First, I should explain my set-ups:
1) Old Pioneer HD (non-DVR) box in bedroom
2) 18 month old SA8300HD DVR in living room
3) Brand new SA8300HDC DVR in basement

The Pioneer box was downgraded to Navigator way back in October or November 2007, and we immediately hated it. Just knowing how ugly and slow it is on that box has made us live in fear of the day the SA8300HD in our living room is downgraded.

On Thursday Feb 21, we stopped at the Southridge TWC store and picked up a second SA8300HD box, the new "C" box. Upon installing it in the basement and starting to use it, my fears were immediately realized. It's horrible. Luckily in reading this thread yesterday, I learned the TWC had set-up a user survey on their SE WI site, and I stated my opinions in detail. The following is what I posted, and it will stand as my personal observations on Navigator's shortcomings, specifcally versus the Aptiv software, which I found to be nearly flawless. This is long, but I think it's more comprehensive than anything I've read in this thread and I'd like to see what other people think/have observed, too, and would urge everyone to complete the survey.

Here's what I told TWC:

My wife and I basically hate Navigator and we thought the Aptiv interface was wonderful. Navigator should have used Aptiv as the baseline for interface and functions and built up from there. Here's some specific things we do not like about Navigator.

> Navigator first showed up on our bedroom cable box (older Pioneer HD box, non-DVR) and the first thing we noticed was the bland appearence versus the Aptiv software.

> Navigator performs much slower. Everything from channel changes, accessing the program guide and accessing menus is sluggish and slow to respond to remote control inputs.

> When viewing the program guide, we almost always lose the video in the upper right preview window.

> The ability to find shows is TERRIBLE. One of the great things the Aptiv software allowed was the ability to find shows right out of the program guide. When you were on a particular show in the guide, all you had to do was click "C" for Search, and all the other airings of that show would come up. Next to the listing, you had the keypad to allow title & keyword searching. The Navigator software automatically displays a useless alphabetical list and your only option is to begin a title search by typing in the letters. This is one of the worst issues with Navigator, especially with a DVR and setting up recordings.

> We just picked up a third box a few days ago (SA 8300HDC - this is in addition to the Pioneer box in our bedroom and an SA 8300HD running Aptiv in the living room.) It took about 5 minutes to start seeing problems with the Navigator software in relation to the DVR functionality, too.

> When fast-forwarding or re-winding through a recorded show, you don't get a progress bar on the bottom of the screen. You can't even just click the Play button to show where you're at in the program. In fact, instead of this time display, Navigator displays an enormous banner at the bottom of the screen showing the channel and a show title. Although even THAT's a problem, because when I was watching an episode of King of Queens I had recorded earlier in the day, this banner correctly showed WTBS as the channel, but the program title it displayed was some Spanish show title, possible a title of a show that had aired on one of the Spanish-language channels - who knows.

> Navigator's recording options are not as flexible as Aptiv's, either, specifically in regards to setting up series recording. More specifically, it does not allow you to set series recordings for only a single channel, nor does it allow you to set series recordings only for a single time/airing. For example, I normally record the Daily Show and Colbert Report airings at 12:00 midnight and 12:30 AM, respectively on Comedy Central. However, Comedy Central airs these shows several times during the day. Even my Aptiv box could not tell which airings were new or reruns, so I simply set my Aptiv DVR to record only these airings, whether they were new or reruns. On the new Navigator DVR, since I can't tell it to record only the one airing of each show, the DVR recorded ALL airings of both shows during the course of a day. This creates numerous duplicate recordings of the same show.

> On top of the previous problem, because Navigator is so slow, just going through and deleting all these duplicate recordings is a huge chore.

> Finally, another situation where Navigator's slowness rears it's head is when setting up recordings (mainly series), when Navigator takes an enormous amount of time just setting the recordings you input.

At first, I thought the slow operation of Navigator (on our old Pioneer box) was related to the age of the box. But it's only marginally quicker on my brand new SA 8300HDC box. For the time being, Aptiv is still running on my living room box, and having the ability to experience both applications almost side-by-side truly shows off the shortcomings of Navigator. It seems that a lot of effort was put into giving Navigator some interesting functions (through the A-B-C-D buttons in particular) but I find most of these functions of no use on a daily basis, whereas the problems I detailed above are things I'm going to be running into constantly.

I'm very, very unhappy with Navigator. I see no reason why Navigator could not be improved, and although I'm not a software developer, I would think that fixing all the problems I've detailed could be done fairly easily. If that's the case, and these fixes are in the works, then I will try to be patient and wait for these fixes. But if this doesn't happen, I may be forced to look at my other options for television services.


Thanks for reading - let's see some more posts regarding specific likes (if there are any) and dislikes of Navigator.



Great letter Turbo!

Keep us posted on future updates.

Jack

[Jack 1000]

Just a heads up that San Diego and vicinity is getting Navigator (or will be getting it) sometime this week on legacy NON-C boxes and DVR's. Not that this relates to our area, but it is the first (or one of the first areas) with Navigator and the non-C boxes going through the transition. So far, (although it's early) the rollout is going MUCH better than expected, and several recordings on people's DVR's have even SURVIVED the transfer!!!! (A few got lost, but nowhere near what we have been thinking.)

Follow the rollout and see how things go on the first couple threads in this forum:

Not exactly calls for the celebration of Navigator, but IF our transition runs like this in March, or whenever our DVR rollout begins, I think it will be better than we expected:

http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/2/2.html

Jack

[Jack 1000]

My brother from Milwaukee said he got Navigator on his box. (I know he has a DVR, and assume that it is a non-C box.) Said the things we have been talking about for year: It's slow and clunky, he can't find anything, and he thinks the search 2 weeks in advance is dumb because he doesn't plan that far ahead for TV watching. I e-mailed him asking if he got it through a download, if TWC gave him any warning notice, and if his recordings survived.

We are closing in on the date I think. Whether we like it or not.

Jack

[Jack 1000]

My brother from Milwaukee said he got Navigator on his box. (I know he has a DVR, and assume that it is a non-C box.) Said the things we have been talking about for year: It's slow and clunky, he can't find anything, and he thinks the search 2 weeks in advance is dumb because he doesn't plan that far ahead for TV watching. I e-mailed him asking if he got it through a download, if TWC gave him any warning notice, and if his recordings survived.

We are closing in on the date I think. Whether we like it or not.

Jack

He said he got no notice at all. He has an SD DVR. Didn't say about the recordings. He did e-mail TWC to complain but knows that this means nothing. He didn't mention anything about bugs, just that it was very awkward and slow.

Jack

[gparris]

Well, it IS March, right?
Thankfully, the writer's strike has made fewer new programmes available for viewing and recording-so if Crapagator messes up the recordings, there will be fewer of them to mess up...until later.
Nice of TWC to go in stealth mode and drop this on us!:mad:

BTW, the 8300HDC my neighbours have is slow, clunky and they hate it.
For some reason, they keep watching Directv commercials with a new-found love and happiness...can't figure that out.:rof:

[Jack 1000]

Well, it IS March, right?
Thankfully, the writer's strike has made fewer new programmes available for viewing and recording-so if Crapagator messes up the recordings, there will be fewer of them to mess up...until later.
Nice of TWC to go in stealth mode and drop this on us!:mad:

BTW, the 8300HDC my neighbours have is slow, clunky and they hate it.
For some reason, they keep watching Directv commercials with a new-found love and happiness...can't figure that out.:rof:

A slow clunkey, hated ,8300 HDC box with Navigator???!! Hahahaha!!! Imagine that!!

Seriously, do you think they are going to Dish, or sweating it out with the new guide? Actually, if things don't improve with Crapigator, this would be a great motivator for Direct TV sales, don't you think?

Jack

[gparris]

A slow clunkey, hated ,8300 HDC box with Navigator???!! Hahahaha!!! Imagine that!!

Seriously, do you think they are going to Dish, or sweating it out with the new guide? Actually, if things don't improve with Crapigator, this would be a great motivator for Direct TV sales, don't you think?

Jack
Actually, yes:
I am starting to:
1)Watch CBS58 in SD and log the shows I watch, just to prepare for Directv in Wisconsin.
2) Reviewing the layout of the Directv HD DVR remote and screens.
3) Scheming for "lease fee cash" to get my replacement Directv boxes.
-Seeing what I can get installed when Crapagator comes on line to my 8300HD boxes and I can't take it anymore.
-My DirectvHD dish placement and wiring is figured out and I figure I can use the existing RG6 cabling I have used for my cableTV:
FYI: I even have 2 cable hookups and a telephone jack for use with the each of the 2 HD DVRs I plan on getting, too.
-I am ALREADY motivated and Crapagator will do the rest of the "motivating"!:D

[Jack 1000]

At least some good news,

My brother from Milwaukee said that his recordings survived the transfer to his non-C DVR when it was changed over to Navigator. Individual recordings seem to have the best results. Series recordings, I didn't ask about, but those appear to be a hit and miss. A factor seems to be IF Navigator can find the title and time of the recording from the old changeover, it will most likely survive. If there is no series title recording when the change over happens from old Passport to new Navigator, it is most likely that the old Passport series recordings will be lost.

Jack

[Jack 1000]

A quote from user PWFD81:

I was told by TWC that is being done by box and location. My parents live down the street from me and there NON HD DVR was done this past weekend. My mom can't stand the slowness of the box and the loss of some of the features. I talked to TWC about it and they said they will ALL be updated in my area by the end of March. Mine should be done within the week I was told.

Thank you PWFD81!

An e-mail response from TWC said that their goal was to have all areas "Navigated" by the end of March. So hypothetically, if they are converting 40,000 boxes at a time each day by make and model#, and if they said next week for PWF, everyone should start watching what you have recorded and back up anything you can't live without or make arrangements to have someone do it for you just in case any recordings are lost. It looks like we may all be "hit" within about a 3 day grace period of each other. (This is what happened when they pushed TV Caller ID to Digital Phone Subs.) But at least we got something like a 2 day notice.) Don't count on it here!

Sad to say that assuming my brother is correct about not getting any notice, this forum and the AVS forums may be the ONLY notification of when "it" happens.

Jack

[Jack 1000]

A good tip!

If you are still running Passport and you haven't rebooted your box for say a month or more, and you know that Navigator is coming to your area within a week or so, UNPLUG your box for several seconds to a minute and than plug it back in. (Don't just do a hold the power button in and wait for the word "Boot" on the display. (Known as a warm reboot.) Do a cold reboot by unplugging the box to get any intrusive data out. This will at least insure that your box is at least starting with fresh data around when the change over happens, if the date is unknown.

If you have a scheduled download date, the less that you have your box doing at the time, the better the transition might go. Try not to be watching and recording multiple content on the night of the change-over. In fact, if you know your transfer date, don't be recording anything (if you can) between say 2am-5am on the transfer day. The transfer usually happens around that time and I heard takes about 45 minutes to an hour.

Understand that these tips are in no way guarantees. It's just little things that you can do that might make your box behave a little better during the download/change-over process.

Jack

[gparris]

I wonder if SE Wisconsin TWC will get the HistoryHD and National Geographic HD channels (like NE Wisconsin TWC's Green Bay location did last week) once Navigator is dumped on all of the TWC boxes here?

In other words, why couldn't Passport/Aptiv Digital be used with SDV to eliminate the alienation of so many past and future TWC subs, instead of this Navigator crap?
Didn't TWC ever ask its subscribers what they did (if that was possible) like about it and needed to fix before its release on all of us subs?
-IHMO, I don't think so because they don't seem to care about us subs.

I'll bet that TWC still thinks its "ALL-IN-ONE" packaging will continue to be their "saviour".
Maybe that will be true, but those special packages probably don't include DVRs, do they, so their exposure to Navigator probably never happens?:(

[Jack 1000]

I wonder if SE Wisconsin TWC will get the HistoryHD and National Geographic HD channels (like NE Wisconsin TWC's Green Bay location did last week) once Navigator is dumped on all of the TWC boxes here?

In other words, why couldn't Passport/Aptiv Digital be used with SDV to eliminate the alienation of so many past and future TWC subs, instead of this Navigator crap?
Didn't TWC ever ask its subscribers what they did (if that was possible) like about it and needed to fix before its release on all of us subs?
-IHMO, I don't think so because they don't seem to care about us subs.

I'll bet that TWC still thinks its "ALL-IN-ONE" packaging will continue to be their "savior".
Maybe that will be true, but those special packages probably don't include DVRs, do they, so their exposure to Navigator probably never happens?:(

Good points!

But as Navigator (at least here) was downloaded to the non-DVR boxes first, even the non-DVR's subs are stuck with it. In other areas outside of Wisconsin, I heard that Navigator was scrapped on Motorola DVR's! So I don't know what TWC will do. Probably just swap out the boxes when the Passport change-over happens. It has also been recommended to NOT use an external hard drive when your box gets Navigator, because Navigator has enough problems as an IPG, without an added hard drive added to it!

The only thing that I see as an upgrade relates to my own experience with being hard of hearing, that I will now be able to use Closed Captioning on the same cable remote instead of the TV remote. I would always have to use the TV remote for CC, because that was the only thing that never worked on my Passport box. But even if for some reason that still doesn't work, the non-C boxes seem to work better than the C-boxes.

I DID hear that when Navigator was tested on some SA boxes from January 2007-March 2007 that they did have a statement that said they were testing the new guide. TWC-Milwaukee President ,Jack Herbert last January, did send out a form letter to me saying that at least one of my boxes would be converted like the day or two days after I got the letter. But the change never happened. At the time he said that they planned to have all boxes converted to Navigator within the next few months.

This was when I had my old Pioneer. I called TWC sometime in that January-March 2007 span and they said that the SA DVR's were going to be done first and the Pioneer's last. But when the "***** hit the fan" in Lincoln Nebraska around that same time frame when they got the early releases of Navigator that make these newer ones look stellar, TWC abandoned the DVR downloads and all further box downloads because it wasn't ready. The ONLY boxes at that time that had Navigator were the test marketed SA non-DVR units. AFAIK, the downloads on the experimental SA boxes were ALL NON-C (no integrated cable card boxes.)

The FCC mandated integrated cable cards on all new boxes as of July 1st 2007. All C-units had Navigator at that time. It was still bad, but not as bad as other divisions. The non-C rollout to the remaining SA boxes, and old Pioneer units began around November 2007. The change was supposed to be complete by the end of the year. But I heard they had trouble with the DVR's. They are working on the Non-HD DVR's now, or finishing up the transition. Than the HD DVR's, which may be starting now, or sometime this coming week. TWC Wisconsin wants all non-C units in the field converted to Navigator by the end of March. Change-over date is based on your box model and location.

A consolation is at least they aren't dumping it on all boxes at once! I heard from the AVS forums that on Tuesday, March 11th, all of Cincinnati Ohio's boxes and DVR's are getting changed over at the same time.....ARGGHHHH! The one good thing is that they are going slow enough here in Wisconsin to try to isolate any problems, and the survey is still on the TWC Wisconsin website. (although you may have to look around for it. It should be under cable TV options.) At least it was there the last time I checked. Still ****ed that it looks like no one is getting advance notice of the change-over.

The changeover could happen any night now.

Jack

[Jack 1000]

How's it going all?

Any updates from your "neck of the woods" or TWC on Navigator's DVR rollout? If you find any notifications in advance, please post them here.

Jack

[gparris]

Personally, I am waiting to see if the 8300HD (no C) boxes do better with Navigator added after Passport is dropped and will report on this, including the the possiblity of missing season passes and erased recordings.:mad:

-My neighbours who bought the 60A3000 HDTV set hate the slowness and clumsiness of the 8300HDC box vs. their old 8000, but are "suffering" through it for now.*

*Until our neighbourhood does its "DirectvHD upgrade" (we still are planning as a group), just to show TWC Milwaukee how much we "love them" with all their crap.

[gparris]

As you know, TWC's Navigator for HD DVRs and the legacy boxes (8300HD) are about to be hit with this crappy programming system very soon now.
Here is an excerpt from an angry neighbour of mine, one of many that is extremely disgusted of TWC and its Navigator system in their 8300HDC.
Here is what his family sent to TWC today and I have left out the address as I believe the moderator's will delete it per forum rules (PM me and I will give it out):

"Dear Ms. Greenberg:
Messages to you in the past have been mostly centered around trying to find out the issues as it relates to the roll-out of Navigator, and pretty much what would the issues be when it was deployed full-scale to the entire SE Wisconsin Community. To that end the answers have been pretty much:
Paraphrased: “Whatever they are, and we know there are issues, we are not going to tell you, our subscribing public that pays us millions a year to use the service.”
Now, truly, you know that no one on your staff would say such a thing, as he or she would be fired for certain, however, a conclusion that this is the case given both your’s and TWC’s failure to state the known issues up front, along with a time-frame for fixing these. And we all know that given the market if you were to announce the issues up front your subscribing public would be flooding your email with complaints.
As a corporate entity you have two obligations the first one, unfortunately is keeping TWC Ownership (Stockholders) happy, the second keeping your subscriber public happy. Albeit, I wish it were the other way around.
In speaking with a neighbor yesterday over an extended conversation the neighbor advised how unhappy they were with Navigator, not just the slow response, but the fact that they are ending up with the programs they are opting to schedule for recording is not being recorded every time, and the frequency of this happening is more than it is not. And in fact, they are ending up with shows being recorded that are in fact not on their ‘to be recorded’ list.
It’s clear that the problems that plagued the Nebraska rollout, and many others like it across the nation are now occurring here in SE Wisconsin, and the community here will very much see the same issues as before, with the non-application of lessons learned previously, as a reference to a much earlier email to you and your staff. I have just one question, “why”.
I am forwarding a copy of this email to the MilwaukeeHDTV forum here in SE Wisconsin with the instruction that they should post my home address to forum members, here and elsewhere to instruct them to document not only their issues, but a breakdown of communications with TWC to reach a resolution on the matter.
(PM gparris on the address if interested)
Those letters, along with a formal complaint will be delivered to the Wisconsin’s Attorney General and the Consumer Protection Department outlining the issues occurring not only across SE Wisconsin, but within other divisions of TWC that can be captured, as well as a breakdown of HD Channel disparity across the TWC Markets as well. A copy of that complaint will also be forwarded to the FCC for review, members of Congress that not only represents the local area, but the state as well.
Ms. Greenberg, you already know that there are severe issues with the deployment of Navigator across SE Wisconsin and you know that to continue to deploy in it’s current state would amount to the inability to deliver acceptable service levels, and that to continue to collect fees with such performance issues could be constructed to be an act that could result in legal action not only against TWC but you as well, given this is being done under both your knowledge and leadership.
As I started this message, I indicated that I have attempted to get insight into the issues as Navigator is deployed, that’s remains my position. I want to give Navigator at least 30 days in my own home before I make a decision to ditch it. Knowing a schedule for deployment would be a wonderful thing – but that information is being with-held as well.
You know my position and by now it’s certainly clear – accountability and nothing less, and I expect to get what I pay for – and nothing less, and nothing more.
Sincerely,
Roger D. Sago"

Please feel free to write TWC Milwaukee ("SE Wisconsin TWC") as you feel free or PM me to get the address for a massive dump of letters , as you see fit.

Enough is enough, TWC, this is only the "tip of the iceberg" with disgusted TWC subs about Navigator and the forgotten HD channel additions in SE Wisconsin.

[Jack 1000]

Still not converted yet, But I thought it might be a good idea to post your box type/model either in your message or profile when you are. Some of the boxes work better than the others.

Jack

PS. I have an SA8300HD DVR.

[Jack 1000]

Well,

We are closing in on the conversion. I think those with the non-C legacy boxes might want to discuss what to expect. Unfortunately, it appears that we will get no warning. I am expecting some slowness in the guide and having the need to get used to finding things, But since I have a non-C box (DVR) I am certainly anticipating a faster response time than that poor fella with the Pioneer box demonstration on You Tube. I still have my SD TV so no special hook up for me. When it's downloaded, I am anticipating some mild issues. But nowhere near the horrors that other divisions have had. So far, people's recordings have carried over in Wisconsin, and that's certainly an improvement. But there is certainly a long way to go!

We have all prepped so long for this, that some who might be expecting the worst, may be ok. Having said that, who has a legacy, non-C, HD, DVR that has been changed? When the first report hits this board, all of us will most likely have Navigator within the week I'll say.

Jack

[Jack 1000]

Has anyone gotten Navigator in Metro Milwaukee on a HD DVR yet? Channel 1 is now all Navigator AOD menu help. But so far, I have not received Navigator on my SA 8300HD box.

Jack

[PWFD81]

Has anyone gotten Navigator in Metro Milwaukee on a HD DVR yet? Channel 1 is now all Navigator AOD menu help. But so far, I have not received Navigator on my SA 8300HD box.

Jack

I was told by a TWC installer that he just installed a 8300 HDDVR the other day and when he plugged it in it had passport, then rebooted and downloaded Navigator. Here in Port my two 8300 HDDRV's do NOT have Navigator but the installer told me it will be VERY soon. He told me they are doing the updates Wendesday and Thursday nights?. Sounds like maybe this coming week is when I could get hit?.

I HOPE NOT. I'm sure DTV hope so since I am leaving the day TWC updates mine!

T

[gparris]

When my family can longer stand Navigator in its 8300HD DVR boxes once it comes, we will find a way to return them:
For HR21-100's, the coolest and quietest of the DirectvHD boxes out there, if we can find them and work it out to get the first one for $99 and the second for $199 (per the Directv website).;) These boxes, according to the dbstalk site are the best yet and it may take some time to get Directv for installation, then maybe not.
We don't know how to get these "100" series HD DVRs, but the wait will be worth it, I'm certain.

Additionally, a spot has been located in our yard for a southern "access lock" on all sats and we are just waiting for TWC to frak up and dump a slow and unresponsive Navigator on us.
All we will lose is the CBSHD service since CBS58HD doesn't lock in well OTA at my location and locally, I can't get a waiver to get CBSHDNYC.
-Not a bad price to pay, IMO, to let TWC their cableTV service bites.:D

[gb4fan92]

Direct tv boxes can be purchased at retail stores directly. So if you are looking for something specific that would be your best bet. Otherwise you would be at the mercy of the installation company as to which box they bring over to you.

[gparris]

Thanks for the information...if I can get the pricing, fine, if not, at least the box works great and no Navigator once and for all (once Mystro Navigator hits my 8300HD DVRs).

The all-black HR21 will match my HT equipment (vs. the ugly TWC box), though it weighs a little more, it will still fit in most locations my 8300HD's do now.
I read that the "-100" series was the best model, though not the "Pro" model, which is more than I desire with a 2-box HD DVR minimum requirement in my household.
Additionally, I leave the top and side areas around the DVR boxes open with plenty of ventilation, already.;)

[rdduke]

Before you begin reading, note this is a lengthy post, and I thank those of you that take the time to read it in advance.
I contacted Bev Greenberg's office in December and continued communicating with her staff. I started receiving communications from her office (phone and email) only after I contacted my local city TWC liaison and complained about the pending rollout and Navigator’s failures in other markets. He received my response, did the research himself, and contacted TWC and opened the door to my communications.
Noted, my initial communication to TWC was following the Dec 12 mailing advising us subscribers that Navigator was on its way and would be arriving soon. My communications eventually put me in touch with the lead Engineer responsible for the Navigator deployment in SE Wisconsin, which lasted for almost an hour.
During the conversation the Engineer advised that they were delaying the rollout due to issues that they discovered and thus needed an update before they could roll it out and that current projections put deployment sometime around the end of 1st quarter 2008 to the beginning of the 2nd.
He further talked to the point that TWC had to deploy Navigator for approximately 100 different versions of both Set-Top and DVR's. We spoke of how they were going to maintain the quality in the midst of such a huge number of versions. We spoke of revision levels within the versions of boxes. He indicated that while TWC was going to develop to the version level, they WERE NOT going to be developing Navigator to the revision level of the box itself. I indicated that this in fact would lead to more issues, as testing at the revision level might not be possible, it would in fact allow more issues to surface.
I asked and inquired if it was possible to get the same version of boxes and the same revision level on all my boxes. He indicated that it would be difficult to do - but not impossible and agreed that this would certainly aid one in having a more stable experience with the roll-out of Navigator.
In the conversation, I asked the Engineer for a list of known issues and a schedule for when they would be fixed, suggesting that in every software deployment there are issues that fall within 3 categories: 1.) those that would be addressed prior to deployment, 2.) those to be fixed within the deployment window, and 3.) those to be fixed post deployment.
The engineer stated that while they had a list they would not publish that information to the public or to their subscriber base. My comment to the engineer was that their competition would use it to their advantage and he knew it and who could blame them – while he did not deny this, he did not admit it either.
I inquired of the Engineer about TWC’s deployment of Navigator in other markets. I clearly asked if they had considered the lessons learned in other markets deployed, to which no answer was given. I also asked, given the current announced delay of Navigator did they not experience these same issues in other markets in which Navigator was deployed. The answer to this question was not clear, but the conclusion drawn in the conversation is that TWC in SE Wisconsin is doing more than ‘tweaking’ code from other markets.
I indicated that by allowing each market region to be responsible for maintaining own (“almost 100”) versions of Navigator and not applying lessons-learned in other markets, and working for a time-tested stable version of Navigator how could TWC ever reach an acceptable level of quality within it’s rollout of Navigator.
I made mention of this forum and others in my conversation, and the Engineer made me aware that TWC was aware of this board, and the various posts regarding Navigator and other issues.
During my initial conversations with the staff at TWC I kept in communication Ms. Greenberg's office and for a while I was at least getting email responses that indicated that she had read my mail and even sent me an email thanking me for bringing performance issues that were reported to her attention. Now, this email from Ms. Greenberg was a brush-off for sure, but earlier communications with TWC were clearly made at the request of TWC’s management.
In my very last email to Ms. Greenberg I copied a URL link to a video referenced on this site to Ms. Greenberg to demonstrate how bad Navigator was. The video, and some of you have viewed it, demonstrated clearly issues not only with performance as a whole, but with the interface and navigation in general. Unfortunately, that email to Ms. Greenberg was returned with a message that it had been deleted before being read.
TWC will clearly be making huge sums of money off you, me and everyone else on a product that just might not be ready for prime-time deployment.. Ask yourself, what is TWC’s success rate with Navigator?
Why not apply that same success rate to other manufacturers, software or not. What would happen to any of these if they were to deliver a product that was so poorly received? Think of those companies that make software products for Banking and Finance, Health and Travel. Most would find themselves in a position of offering a refund, or being recalled. Some, given the nature of the failure would or could even find themselves held accountable financially.
Now, I know that what TWC officers with Navigator isn’t going to save your life, or mine for that matter, that is unless you’re using what TWC as your escape and your stress-reliever, TWC isn’t offering anything more than a delivery of digital electronic content for many purposes including, entertainment, educational and/or informational.
Notwithstanding this fact and this position, do you not think that you should at least be getting to watch that content without having to fight the interface responsible for selection and delivery, all with the option of assuring that you will be able to watch the same, in a schedule more adaptive to your individual scheduled? I for one do!
This isn’t about the fee you and I pay individually, it’s about the amount of money TWC collects monthly on these services, and the apparent need or continued ability to deliver sub-quality service in a digital world, across multiple regional markets, that are plagued with a disparity of product offerings and services, region by region while maintaining almost the same market rates for subscriptions to the end customer. Example, my cousin in another market pays the same as I and get remarkably more HD Channels and many of the ones we don’t and didn’t, such as the History Channel, and their cost of living in the metro-area they live in is remarkably less than here in SE Wisconsin.
Again, I got involved, and reached out, and I challenge each of you to do the same that I have been doing. Go pull the notes from city hall meetings around the country where folks have been complaining about Navigator since the day it was rolled out. See the recommendations of the city councils members, regarding Navigator. See the actions that were taken at the county and some cases, State level.
I’m not sitting on my laurels waiting for delivery. I’m reaching out to TWC in advance of the roll-out. I’m communicating, although now, it may be a worthless effort. I’m working to understand the issues as they may affect me, now and into the future. I will increase my communication threads to include not only the CEO of TWC, but the Board of Directors, who must answer to ownership by stockholders. I will eventually, take the same level of communication to the State, then Federal level beyond. I have a paper trail of communications on this topic, and should you have the same, I encourage you to put it forth. Navigator will either get better, or get worse. If it gets better and performance improves, great! If not, and it gets worse, will Wisconsin become another Nebraska where TWC is held accountable. In the end, I want to be able to say “TWC was well advised, and well informed of the issues”, and given the information, if enough people put it forth first to TWC, and then to their local governments, then on to state and federal levels, and carbon copying TWC each time, TWC cannot plead “ignorance of the issues” any longer, and local governments thus cannot continue to thwart competition in the face of poor sub-quality and sub-standard performance.
As I stated when I started this post, this board is very, very helpful to many, but as a ‘soap-box’ it doesn’t work. Yes, TWC and its management team may monitor this and many other AV Forum Sites, and they may have ‘moles’ registered to provide propaganda, promises and yet to be delivered services. We’ve all read or heard the comment that an ‘anonymous friend” says TWC will be announcing or release this, or that channel or service by this, or that date, only to find the date come and gone. Now, some hold true, others do not, but by and large, it’s propaganda that they are pushing all in an effort to you as their subscriber, more often than not.

[Jack 1000]

Many locations on other forums are reporting an early April rollout for Navigator. It is possible that the Passport contracts and reciprocity agreements between TWC and Passport expire this month. A user on the AVS forum commented that it makes sense for contractual agreements to expire by the end of the month. April 1st is being thrown around the grapevine.

I would start preparing. Don't be recording anything or playing back any DVR recordings between 2-4 am this week if you can avoid it. This might make the download easier. Start watching any DVR recordings that you value just in case they are lost. Back up what you can.

Based on the information going around. I think most of us will have Navigator by the end of the week, or the beginning of next week.

Jack

[PWFD81]

Many locations on other forums are reporting an early April rollout for Navigator. It is possible that the Passport contracts and reciprocity agreements between TWC and Passport expire this month. A user on the AVS forum commented that it makes sense for contractual agreements to expire by the end of the month. April 1st is being thrown around the grapevine.

I would start preparing. Don't be recording anything or playing back any DVR recordings between 2-4 am this week if you can avoid it. This might make the download easier. Start watching any DVR recordings that you value just in case they are lost. Back up what you can.

Based on the information going around. I think most of us will have Navigator by the end of the week, or the beginning of next week.

Jack

Jack, I think you are right. From what an installer told me from TWC the updates are done Wednesdays and Thursday nights. He told me probably this week on me 8300HDDVR!

I hope he is wrong, but I don't think he is.

[nick3092]

Well, so much for the Wed/Thu theory. My parents called me today because their 8000HD guide looked "odd". Sure enough, their box was loaded with Navigator last night. So us 8300HD users are probably next....

[LoadStar]

I would put good money on it coming down the line overnight to 8300HD users.

I decided to put my box and recorded programs at risk, and I rebooted my box (holding the power button down). When it came back up, I lost all guide data. In addition, I can't tune to anything above channel 75.... my guess is that they've turned off the systems the Explorer boxes talk to at the head end.

I'll try a hard reboot, see if that changes anything.

ETA: Never mind... a hard reboot brought back guide data and all channels.

[Jack 1000]

Yea,

I mean we all don't want this thing. But at the same time, I think that communities are just tired of the "waiting game." This is especially true since we are getting it without warning. It's like the old expression " s**t, or get off the pot already." The longer we wait, the more inconvenience and uncertainty with our records and settings exists. What SUCKS, and is APPALLING, is that we customers have to "guess" when we are going to get this upgrade. I think that's such b.s! Other communities outside of Wisconsin got a week warning....not us! Can anyone think of a good reason or any justification why TWC doesn't even want to let customers know that Navigator is coming any day or night at this point? WTF are they doing keeping this a secret? I don't understand that.

Jack

PS. For my guide data on Passport after Wednesday night going into Thursday morning, it shows "No Data" for both the grid and the shows. Not that this hasn't happened before from time to time. But I think the next automatic communication with the head-end will be Navigator on the 8300 HD DVR's.

[gparris]

Jack 1000, Thursday could very well be N-Day, Navigator Day, or even Friday of this week.

-Or as I see it, "end-of-the-line" for TWC payTV service for many other HD subscribers:
JUST THE BEGINNING !(of the end to subs leaving more than ever, in droves).

Now many folks, I'm certain, have the 8300HD boxes, including the 8300 (SD boxes) some even the older 8000 series boxes, none of which I know have Navigator messing them up (yet), unless these are those "C" boxes.:p

So the end "result" will be crappy slow Navigator, nothing like the HD channel selection like Texas, NY or the Carolinas, just the same crappy HD channel lineup, same pricing as those with more HD channel selection and frak'up subscribers.

-Gosh, I can hardly wait!:mad:

[Kenoman]

Yea,

PS. For my guide data on Passport after Wednesday night going into Thursday morning, it shows "No Data" for both the grid and the shows. Not that this hasn't happened before from time to time. But I think the next automatic communication with the head-end will be Navigator on the 8300 HD DVR's.

Jack for what it's worth last night we were watching Idol and all of a sudden ny SA8300HD box re-booted. Now this has happened before but what makes this strange that on the TV it showed a grey screen with darker boxes moving across the middle of the screen indicating it was re-booting. Usually it's a screen with an Aptiva logo with small boxes under the logo. The box had a 2 on it during the re-boot.
After the re-boot all appears normal. Still Passport.

[Jack 1000]

Jack for what it's worth last night we were watching Idol and all of a sudden ny SA8300HD box re-booted. Now this has happened before but what makes this strange that on the TV it showed a grey screen with darker boxes moving across the middle of the screen indicating it was re-booting. Usually it's a screen with an Aptiva logo with small boxes under the logo. The box had a 2 on it during the re-boot.
After the re-boot all appears normal. Still Passport.

Kenoman,

I also had a reboot of my SA8300 HD box about two hours ago. But this was not unusual. Unlike your experience, this was a conventional Power TV/ Passport Echo boot sequence. It happened while I was browsing in the guide.

My guess is that they are forcing a soft boot of all boxes before the download of Navigator is applied to them. We are just waiting for that first strike of Navigator on an 8300 HD DVR. Whenever that happens I am sure that within 3 days, all of us will have Navigator.

AFAIK, no boxes are getting the download during the day. I am sure that users will correct me on this if this is wrong, or their experience is different. The download of Navigator is still generally 2am-4am lasting about 30-60 mins on the night of the changeover.

Jack

[gparris]

Thursday is out, maybe early Friday AM, as one would think, but you never know.

It's just like those HD channel rollouts (you can assume) that will never occur
-to make it the same as those "Free HD" channel lineups that appear on other TWC locations' programme guides (with notice there, of course):

http://www.timewarnercable.com/InvestorRelations/PressReleases/TWCPressReleaseDivDetail.ashx?PRID=2193&MarketID=50

It will just happen and that will be it!

[Jack 1000]

Thursday is out, maybe early Friday AM, as one would think, but you never know.

It's just like those HD channel rollouts (you can assume) that will never occur
-to make it the same as those "Free HD" channel lineups that appear on other TWC locations' programme guides (with notice there, of course):

http://www.timewarnercable.com/InvestorRelations/PressReleases/TWCPressReleaseDivDetail.ashx?PRID=2193&MarketID=50

It will just happen and that will be it!

Gparris,

Do you think by the end of next week, most will have it?

Jack

[Kenoman]

Gparris,

Do you think by the end of next week, most will have it?

Jack

Got hit last night with Navigator. Of course it's too early to see if any problems exist. Will keep you informed,
I'm in Kenosha and have a SA8300HD box.

p.s. For all of you waiting for this update (heee heee) be forewarned, be sure you set your tv volume down. When they update they return the sound to the tv, When I turned all on this morning the tv was at full volume and woke up the whole neighborhood.

[Cheesehead Dave]

Got hit last night with Navigator. Of course it's too early to see if any problems exist. Will keep you informed,
I'm in Kenosha and have a SA8300HD box.

p.s. For all of you waiting for this update (heee heee) be forewarned, be sure you set your tv volume down. When they update they return the sound to the tv, When I turned all on this morning the tv was at full volume and woke up the whole neighborhood.
I'll be awaiting the call from my in-laws when I get home tonight, wondering what happened to their TV... :rolleyes:

[Jack 1000]

Still Passport here!!!!

Jack

[LuckySe7ens]

Two 8300HD DVRs

One got hit last night, the other didn't. So far I like some of the functionality of Navigator. Didn't seem to lose any recordings or scheduled shows, but we'll see how it performs in the future.

I did notice one thing, I was actually awake watching TV when it updated. The box shut itself off like 5 minutes prior to the update. I thought it was gonna update when it booted then, but it didn't. And then the box shut itself off again 5 minutes later, and started downloading the data. After that finished, the box booted like 3 times before it was working again. The process overall (including the 5 minutes from first boot) took like 20 minutes.

[Gadgetguy]

I got my update last night. Actually, when I got up and was reading the paper, the DVR was repeatedly rebooting. Eventually, it occured to me that the external hard drive might be causing a problem. I removed it and, after one more reboot, all was fine.

Then, of course, I'm worried about reconnecting the external drive. After going through the standard drive add procedure, all was fine. I did not lose any of my recordings.

Version is listed as 2.4.1-92, Jan 14, 2008.

Comments - so far -

Bad ...

It is a bit slow ...

Doesn't fill a 16x9 screen with the Explorer display.
Has problems differentiating "new" recordings from "old" .. I may have to check scheduled recordings more often to cancel duplicates, or be more careful in scheduling settings.

Good ...

The reading that shows percentage of available space used is nice. It does include space on the external drive, but doesn't show separately space on the drives.

The ability to list recorded shows by date or title.

[LoadStar]

I got my update last night. Actually, when I got up and was reading the paper, the DVR was repeatedly rebooting. Eventually, it occured to me that the external hard drive might be causing a problem. I removed it and, after one more reboot, all was fine.

Then, of course, I'm worried about reconnecting the external drive. After going through the standard drive add procedure, all was fine. I did not lose any of my recordings.

Version is listed as 2.4.1-92, Jan 14, 2008.

Comments - so far -

Bad ...

It is a bit slow ...

Doesn't fill a 16x9 screen with the Explorer display.
Has problems differentiating "new" recordings from "old" .. I may have to check scheduled recordings more often to cancel duplicates, or be more careful in scheduling settings.

Good ...

The reading that shows percentage of available space used is nice. It does include space on the external drive, but doesn't show separately space on the drives.

The ability to list recorded shows by date or title.

I understand under Explorer Echo, hooking up an external drive caused the "trick play" features to go away. Is that sill the case with Navigator, or does that work now?

[Jack 1000]

Haven't been changed yet, but have a couple of Navigator questions:

1.) If the guide is slow, is it possible to go into Power Speed Mode like on Passport, by holding down one of the arrow keys in the direction you want to go, or the page+/- button on the remote to make it go faster?

2.) Can you also hold down the channel up/down button to make the guide go faster?

Jack

[cdnelson]

Haven't been changed yet, but have a couple of Navigator questions:

1.) If the guide is slow, is it possible to go into Power Speed Mode like on Passport, by holding down one of the arrow keys in the direction you want to go, or the page+/- button on the remote to make it go faster?

2.) Can you also hold down the channel up/down button to make the guide go faster?

Jack

In my limited experience? No. All that does is lock the screen for a few seconds, and then it goes nuts moving up several screens very rapidly, i.e playing "catch up". You have virtually no control over it unless you go slow. :mad:

[LoadStar]

In my limited experience? No. All that does is lock the screen for a few seconds, and then it goes nuts moving up several screens very rapidly, i.e playing "catch up". You have virtually no control over it unless you go slow. :mad:

Is your experience based on MDN or ODN? MDN apparently is quite a bit different than ODN in terms of user functionality.

[cdnelson]

I'll clarify if I can, but you're going to have to help me out...I'm new here.

MDN, ODN??? Stands for what? If it's a version of the software, I'll have to wait until I get home and check the diagnostics on my box.

[LoadStar]

I'll clarify if I can, but you're going to have to help me out...I'm new here.

MDN, ODN??? Stands for what? If it's a version of the software, I'll have to wait until I get home and check the diagnostics on my box.

Sorry. My bad. :o

MDN = Mystro Digital Navigator = Navigator that runs on non-OCAP boxes (e.g. 8300HD)

ODN = OCAP Digital Navigator = Navigator that runs on OCAP boxes (e.g. 8300HDC)

Typically, OCAP boxes will be equipped with CableCards, which may or may not be visible to the end user.

The two versions of Navigator look the same, but because they run on two completely different types of hardware, it is said that MDN works somewhat better than ODN. In terms of features, however, they're identical.

[cdnelson]

It's an HDC box so I'm going to say ODN...

I've been less than thrilled with it, but I've been informed that that's all I'll get if I trade it in. I was glad to find this site though and determine that most of the problems are NOT my home setup as TWC had been insisting.

[MDR]

Got the dreaded voicemail today that Navigator will be dumped on me in the next couple of days.
Add insult to injury, a member on AVS forums says a tech told him that TWC will definitely disable e-sata.
Guess it's time to pursue sat or U-Verse(if it ever gets here).
MDR

[oz]

I got it too - not as bad as I expected.

I did lose my favorite shortcut on the remote - I used to be able to switch between Normal, Stretch, and Zoom views by using the button in the lower left corner (I think it's labeled Bypass or Input), now the button does nothing.

[cdnelson]

I got it too - not as bad as I expected.

I did lose my favorite shortcut on the remote - I used to be able to switch between Normal, Stretch, and Zoom views by using the button in the lower left corner (I think it's labeled Bypass or Input), now the button does nothing.

The # key should take care of that for you now...it does for us.

My biggest gripe is still when you go into the guide or list then exit...the picture stays 1/4 screen sized until I turn PIP on and off again. It's a simple work around but it's VERY annoying.

[gparris]

Sorry. My bad. :o

MDN = Mystro Digital Navigator = Navigator that runs on non-OCAP boxes (e.g. 8300HD)

ODN = OCAP Digital Navigator = Navigator that runs on OCAP boxes (e.g. 8300HDC)

Typically, OCAP boxes will be equipped with CableCards, which may or may not be visible to the end user.

The two versions of Navigator look the same, but because they run on two completely different types of hardware, it is said that MDN works somewhat better than ODN. In terms of features, however, they're identical.

My next door neigbours have the 8300HDC with ODN and it works slower than my 8300HD's with MDN.
Mind you, Navigator is still slower and takes a push of patience to get the grid up and the fade away between screen requests is very disconcerting, it still is no Passport and I hope they improve it over time.

Right now, until I can switch to DTV, I am tied up with this TWC box and I am wondering how important CBSHD is to me losing it since I cannot get it OTA at my location and I am very certain that CBS58's Mr. Hall won't allow me to get CBSHDNYC off of Directv's dish, instead.:mad:

Dear Ms. Greenburg at TWC:
IF TWC Wisconsin can deliver the HD channels it has in TWC-TX, NY, NC and SC, (among other TWC locations) and include the Sci-Fi HD channel, I might stay around.;)
But past performance and the lousy two HD channels you are "gifting" us HD subs in late May is too little too late, even with lousy Navigator...sorry.

[Jack 1000]

The # key should take care of that for you now...it does for us.

My biggest gripe is still when you go into the guide or list then exit...the picture stays 1/4 screen sized until I turn PIP on and off again. It's a simple work around but it's VERY annoying.

Is this true about the 1/4 pic size for everyone? Or only when PIP is activated?

Jack

[MDR]

Just an update. Well they dumped Navigator on me last night. Off to a great start it trashed my 8300HD. It caused all sorts of noise(disk kept clicking like mad and when that stopped it made a horrible buzzing noise.) Then it would just hang saying "Mystro" initializing. The phone rep. could even hear it across the room when she tried resetting it remotely. Of course they said I needed a new box. Went to the local office to exchange it and the rep. was very familiar with the problem saying a lot of the 8300HD's got trashed (even hers) by this new improved product.
Unfortunately I now have an 8300HDC. Spent the entire day just going thru and setting it up. Yes the interface is rather ugly but overall it functions ok so far. My rev. level is in my signature.
Of course the real test will be recording(which I will do tonight).
Yes it is a little slower than Passport, but not as bad as I was led to believe by following the forum. It's a question of becoming familiar with the new interface. Some things are nicer, other aren't and everyone will have their own personal likes and dislikes.
So I'll see how it functions over the next few days and see how well it does it's primary purpose of recording and playing back reliably. That's my big concern!

[kevbeck122]

Is this true about the 1/4 pic size for everyone? Or only when PIP is activated?

Jack

That happened to me when I used HDMI on an HDC box, but not through component.

[wireblsam]

Got it this morning on one of the 3 8300HD's...

It already has missed one scheduled recording (The Office tonight). The Recording Log says "The set-top was unable to record this program". It recorded 30 Rock in the slot before and nothing else was recording at that time.

Luckily the other 2 Passport DVR's recorded it just fine.

[cdnelson]

About the 1/4 size update...something changed on my box with the last update...which happened when??? Under the display settings I can now "choose" which resolution I want by default (I never had the choice before). It was set at 1080i...I flipped it back to "automatic" and the 1/4 size screen problem went away.

So apparently they're still making changes to Navigator?

[Jack 1000]

About the 1/4 size update...something changed on my box with the last update...which happened when??? Under the display settings I can now "choose" which resolution I want by default (I never had the choice before). It was set at 1080i...I flipped it back to "automatic" and the 1/4 size screen problem went away.

So apparently they're still making changes to Navigator?

I found out that Navigator is an open-sourced project. For that reason, they will always be able to update it. Maybe this is some good news as at least the potential is there for them to work out the bugs. I just wish they had qualified open-sourced people (i.e Mozilla Firefox) who would know how to debug this thing before release. This would result in a faster and more reliable interface.

I did hear that a high-resolution graphics guide is being developed for Navigator, but it will not be released until reliability problems are worked out. But Navigator updates are going to be an ongoing thing.

Jack

[LoadStar]

I found out that Navigator is an open-sourced project. For that reason, they will always be able to update it. Maybe this is some good news as at least the potential is there for them to work out the bugs. I just wish they had qualified open-sourced people (i.e Mozilla Firefox) who would know how to debug this thing before release. This would result in a faster and more reliable interface.

"Open source"? Kind of doubt that. The difference between Navigator and Passport is that TWC likely owns the source to Navigator, while Passport's source is owned by Aptiv Digital.

[Jack 1000]

If anyone has higher up connections to the TWC Wisconsin areas being Navigated, please post a schedule here. (I mean in terms of city by city in Wisconsin.) Is it also known:

1.) How many boxes are being done per night?

2.) How many locations are done at night?

3.) Do they do this from a main outside drop pole, or inside from the main office, or both?

Jack

[markd]

I highly doubt that anyone with connections to TWC would admit that here ;)

FWIW, I'm in Bay View and still have Passport running on both of my 8300HDs.

[basshive]

I would not call it open source. It is an open platform to be developed on.

[PWFD81]

I highly doubt that anyone with connections to TWC would admit that here ;)

FWIW, I'm in Bay View and still have Passport running on both of my 8300HDs.

Your lucky! I wouldn't have DTV coming today if I still had passport! I know DTV is going to be better than TWC and I will get WAY more HD but everything is set up so nice now. My wife and daughter are not happy about learning new channel numbers. Yea, I know that sounds funny.

[Jack 1000]

I have a feeling that more areas will be converted this week. Do you think that TWC is looking at the end of the month for a complete changeover?

Jack

[PWFD81]

The TWC Tech at my home a couple of weeks ago said April 30th TWC will have all boxes updated. Not sure if he was in the know or not but he was right about my 8300HD DVR's getting updated. Now I'm just sitting back with DTV and ALL the HD channels I could want. I should have made the swith long ago. DTV Rocks!:rock:

[Jack 1000]

The TWC Tech at my home a couple of weeks ago said April 30th TWC will have all boxes updated. Not sure if he was in the know or not but he was right about my 8300HD DVR's getting updated. Now I'm just sitting back with DTV and ALL the HD channels I could want. I should have made the swith long ago. DTV Rocks!:rock:

April 30? *****!!!! You know this sounds like a B-Grade Horror Movie!

" April 30th....It's coming. If you see it on your cable box, there's nothing you can do! Your only question for survival is can you escape to a dish? Can you do it in time? There's nowhere else to go....nowhere to hide, and it's coming to get YOU!" IT WILL SEEK OUT YOUR CABLE SYSTEM AND DESTROY YOUR SANITY!"

"BEWARE OF THE NAVIGATOR!!!" :bang: :bang: :bang:

It seriously sounds like this little tag line could be a great sales pitch for Direct TV and Dish Network! Navigator is going to make them even MORE FAMOUS!! hahaha! Could you imagine what would happen if the Dish guys started demoting Navigator, showing all its problems and than started showing off the speed and reliability of the satellite guide? It looks like TWC is looking to alienate customers, not attract them.

But for a lot of people, Dish is not an option. Thanks for the um.....warning.

Jack

[PWFD81]

April 30? *****!!!! You know this sounds like a B-Grade Horror Movie!

" April 30th....It's coming. If you see it on your cable box, there's nothing you can do! Your only question for survival is can you escape to a dish? Can you do it in time? There's nowhere else to go....nowhere to hide, and it's coming to get YOU!" IT WILL SEEK OUT YOUR CABLE SYSTEM AND DESTROY YOUR SANITY!"

"BEWARE OF THE NAVIGATOR!!!" :bang: :bang: :bang:

It seriously sounds like this little tag line could be a great sales pitch for Direct TV and Dish Network! Navigator is going to make them even MORE FAMOUS!! hahaha! Could you imagine what would happen if the Dish guys started demoting Navigator, showing all its problems and than started showing off the speed and reliability of the satellite guide? It looks like TWC is looking to alienate customers, not attract them.

But for a lot of people, Dish is not an option. Thanks for the um.....warning.

Jack

I love your reply! I do wonder if Dish or DTV know about how the Navigator is pushing us to there service? Not to bash TWC anymore than I already have but DTV was a great switch for me. I love all of the HD choices and the speed of the menue and guide. DTV just does it right!

[Jack 1000]

Just got Navigator on my 8300HD DVR (No C)

A couple of observations:

The scrolling speed is indeed a bit slower, but it doesn't seem to be as bad as I was led to believe.

All recordings at least in my Record List carried over.

Favorites were listed accordingly.

Amazingly, I seem to like the idea of having the local news, weather, and sports consolidated in one place.

The downside is that my Closed Captioning still does not work, but considering the armaggedon that I was expecting for months and months, this is hardly a big deal.

I had to change my Banner Duration from Long to Medium.

Here are the things that I don't like:

1.) The graphics look crappy. I only have an SD set, but they just aren't as pleasing to the eyes as Passport was.

2.) TW needs to add a "View This Channel Now" prompt when browsing in the guide!!! This is asinine not to have!

3.) I never really used Series Recording, so I can't say how well or not well that is going to work.

4.) The loss of the C button to instantly tell when Title searches are scheduled over the next few days.

If Passport was an A, I'd give Navigator a C. It's way too early to do specific details. If we get a better title search and view this channel now as an option, that would be a big help.

Right now I would say, not great, but not horrible either. I am even shocked that I am saying this. We'll see what happens when I start recording things.

Oh yea, it did reboot when I made a settings change, but it only took about 4 minutes, not the 10 that I have been hearing about, which surprised me.

Jack

[gparris]

Thanks for your comments, Jack 1000, now you have Navigator forced upon you like the rest or most, of us.

Last night my other 8300HD finally went to Navigator and the B button to check future recordings, as with Passport, was missing on screen and that made me mad because now I have to scroll down to the bottom and move the icons over to get to LIST for these, instead of staying on one screen and checking them all at once.

Additionally, my power on channel, 541, was lost and had to be resaved as the Navigator sent it to channel 1.
My series manager took some of my recordings for a specific time with repeats and started making all of them recordings throughout the week, so I had to cancel the recordings and work around them...that stunk.

Finally, the banner button for long duration had to be changed to medium, but that was not a big inconvenience, just the mess that is Navigator:
Slower, not as slow as believed, but we still don't have the number of HD channels with it, anyway, as so many other TWC locations have with it.:(

[LoadStar]

My 8300HD got hit last night as well. (No notice of any kind, by the way. Still haven't figured out why some customers are being notified, while others aren't.) Not much time to post a full review right now, but my quick thoughts:

1) Speed: so far, not slow at all from my viewpoint. I'd say it's roughly equal to the speed of Passport Echo on this box.
2) Guide:
a) If I go a channel at a time through the guide, there's a slight (less than a second) lag to pull up the channel logo, but I still have the ability to use the page up/down button to zip through the guide a page at a time, so no big. I don't think I've ever scrolled a channel at a time through the guide... if I did, I'd be scrolling all night!
b) The former ability to press A to jump through the listings a category at a time is gone though. Barely used that myself, and it wasn't even an "advertised" feature under Passport that I could see, so having it gone isn't major.
c) Program descriptions look as if they fit more in the little box in the corner, but aren't quite as full as the old descriptions.
d) Search: no keyword searching as everyone has complained about - but interestingly enough, I didn't even KNOW about keyword searching under Passport until just last week! As a result, I won't miss it at all.
3) Appearance: on my HD set, I actually think it looks more polished than Passport did! I frankly am baffled by the "Commodore 64 like graphics" comments people are making about the UI.
4) Transferring DVR stuff from Passport: all recordings came through; however, many of my season passes dropped off. Admittedly, some were canceled shows that never would have returned (*sniff* Journeyman) but others are shows likely to return that just aren't on right now (Heroes, Chuck, PBS' Soundstage, Sarah Connor Chronicles, etc.) I wrote down all of my season passes last week, so not a MAJOR deal.
5) HDMI output: so far, no problem at all. It's set to 720p output, and everything seems to just work.
6) Analog channels have BLACK pillars now, not grey!!!!!! Wooo-HOO!!!!!

That's my quick notes. I'd personally call this an A- or a B+. Nowhere NEAR canceling over. (Now, if this starts not recording programs and crashing and stuff, I'll be a bit more annoyed, mind you.)

[gparris]

Did you notice your series manager lost many of its shows from before?
Mine did, but I wrote them down before Navigator hit.:(

As far as leaving TWC, we still don't have the HD channel selection other TWC locations had or will have by the end of this month, so having Navigator didn't really make it for us that way, did it?:rolleyes:

[LoadStar]

Did you notice your series manager lost many of its shows from before?
Mine did, but I wrote them down before Navigator hit.:(

Yeah, as I noted, about half of the series I had "season passes" for (TiVo terminology, I know) were not there once I got upgraded. All of them were shows that haven't been on for quite some time, and some were shows that are likely never to be on again. None of the shows that are currently on the air dropped off. I can sort of understand this... my guess is that this was just unfortunate, but unavoidable.

I'd be much more concerned if recordings disappeared on me, frankly.

As far as leaving TWC, we still don't have the HD channel selection other TWC locations had or will have by the end of this month, so having Navigator didn't really make it for us that way, did it?:rolleyes:

Right. I've always said that if you want to leave TWC over the HD situation, then that's totally understandable. (I'd be there too if I could... darn apartment with no southern exposure!) To say you are leaving strictly because your 8300HD got Navigator is silly, particularly now that I've tried it myself.

Now, my reaction is based on Mystro Digital Navigator [MDN]. I know that OCAP Digital Navigator [ODN] is considerably more crash happy and considerably slower, so I can easily see people getting very frustrated by that, even to the point of leaving because of it. I'm most definitely not trying to discount ODN user's bad experiences in the least.

ETA: And I'm still crossing my fingers that TWC is waiting to turn on SDV until all the boxes are upgraded to MDN/ODN, and that once they turn on SDV, they will easily have the bandwidth to add all the HD channels they've been adding in other markets. I have a feeling that trying to add new channels and turn on SDV and all that would be a mess if they were trying to do that in the middle of a MAJOR upgrade of every single cable box in the Milwaukee metro area. As an IT guy, I've been in the middle of major OS upgrades, and to try and make other changes in the middle of that is UUUUUUGLY! I wouldn't want to do it myself, so I can definitely understand what position TWC is coming from.

[Jack 1000]

Oh yea,

And if "View This Channel Now" and a quick title search feature is added, I'll change my grade from a C to like a B-. The things that I am noticing aren't so much bugs, they are just little features that were taken away that should not have been removed.

Jack

[cdnelson]

I've been informed of the difference between MDN/ODN now (thank you btw), but I'm still somewhat confused. I have an HDC box, so I should be OCAP correct? But the screen always reads Mystro when it reboots...or is that the case and the OCAP is "behind the scenes" so to speak?

It's been better as of late, but any reboots will sometimes break something. The power on channel for instance...after the last reboot it would always go to channel 1 regardless of how I set it. I had to force a hard reboot to get it working properly. :rolleyes:

[LoadStar]

I've been informed of the difference between MDN/ODN now (thank you btw), but I'm still somewhat confused. I have an HDC box, so I should be OCAP correct? But the screen always reads Mystro when it reboots...or is that the case and the OCAP is "behind the scenes" so to speak?

It's been better as of late, but any reboots will sometimes break something. The power on channel for instance...after the last reboot it would always go to channel 1 regardless of how I set it. I had to force a hard reboot to get it working properly. :rolleyes:

It gets confusing, even to me. Here is a post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13379994#post13379994) from AVS Forums that seems to summarize it best:
It should be noted (and has been, previously in this thread) that the version of Navigator running on the Explorer 8300HDC is vastly different than that running on the Explorer 8300HD and other "legacy" boxes. The "C" boxes are running OCAP Digital Navigator, which is a re-write of the Mystro Digital Navigator running on the legacy boxes. MDN was the original version, which was written in C to run on the PowerTV RTOS, using much the same S-A middleware as is used by the Passport Echo and SARA IPGs. ODN is a version of MDN rewritten in Java to run on the Open Cable Applications Platform, a Java execution environment with its own defined set of support functions. ODN is portable and can be downloaded to run in new third party "tru2way" compliant televisions and set-tops due to start shipping this year; it has been demonstrated at product shows running on prototype Samsung televisions without any set-top box involved.

So, as best as I can tell, while the terms "MDN" and "ODN" differentiate between the two versions of Navigator, they aren't precisely accurate... "Mystro" seems to be the internal name for the program guide that all Navigator users get, and they have two versions of it that can either reside on top of PowerTV (MDN) or on top of the OCAP platform (ODN).

Hopefully that clears it up, or at least makes it definitively muddy. :)

[Jack 1000]

Where is the recording gage that shows the storage space on the DVR? Through my VERY BRIEF run through last night, I didn't see it. How do you get to it?

Jack

[Jack 1000]

Where is the recording gage that shows the storage space on the DVR? Through my VERY BRIEF run through last night, I didn't see it. How do you get to it?

Jack

Strike that, reverse it!! It's actually right on the DVR Show List. My recording space shows 29% full.

BTW the default for Navigator is to save shows as "Do Not Delete." In Passport, it was "Save Until Space is Needed." This can be changed under Record Options. Does anyone know how to set "Save Until Space is Needed" as the default? So far, I think I like the "Do Not Delete" option as the default better. Most of us should probably keep that setting for awhile as is. Just to see that our shows are holding.

A great feature is that the volume box has a default Narrow setting, which it says is recommended to use for equal sound levels. That means, no more damn commercials that are louder than the programs! However, the AVS forums did report as I recall, some people got better audio output from multi-sound systems by changing this setting from "Narrow" to "Normal."

Jack

[Jack 1000]

Just got Navigator on my 8300HD DVR (No C)

A couple of observations:

The scrolling speed is indeed a bit slower, but it doesn't seem to be as bad as I was led to believe.

All recordings at least in my Record List carried over.

Favorites were listed accordingly.

Amazingly, I seem to like the idea of having the local news, weather, and sports consolidated in one place.

The downside is that my Closed Captioning still does not work, but considering the armaggedon that I was expecting for months and months, this is hardly a big deal.

I had to change my Banner Duration from Long to Medium.

Here are the things that I don't like:

1.) The graphics look crappy. I only have an SD set, but they just aren't as pleasing to the eyes as Passport was.

2.) TW needs to add a "View This Channel Now" prompt when browsing in the guide!!! This is asinine not to have!

3.) I never really used Series Recording, so I can't say how well or not well that is going to work.

4.) The loss of the C button to instantly tell when Title searches are scheduled over the next few days.

If Passport was an A, I'd give Navigator a C. It's way too early to do specific details. If we get a better title search and view this channel now as an option, that would be a big help.

Right now I would say, not great, but not horrible either. I am even shocked that I am saying this. We'll see what happens when I start recording things.

Oh yea, it did reboot when I made a settings change, but it only took about 4 minutes, not the 10 that I have been hearing about, which surprised me.

Jack

I will be exploring more functions with Navigator tonight. Like I said, I would give it a solid C right now. If it had "View This Channel Now" as an option to select on a future show, a C+. If Title Searches are restored, (The old C prompt in Passport, where you can see what times a show is playing on the future,) I would give it a B-. For now, those are the two main lacking features that are holding it back.

Jack

[kevbeck122]

I've been informed of the difference between MDN/ODN now (thank you btw), but I'm still somewhat confused. I have an HDC box, so I should be OCAP correct? But the screen always reads Mystro when it reboots...or is that the case and the OCAP is "behind the scenes" so to speak?

It's been better as of late, but any reboots will sometimes break something. The power on channel for instance...after the last reboot it would always go to channel 1 regardless of how I set it. I had to force a hard reboot to get it working properly. :rolleyes:

When I had an HDC box, it showed the SA OCAP Middleware loading first (about 1-3 minutes) then Navigator (3-15 minutes). That's my experience with an HDC box.. VERY slow.

My 8300HD got Navigator last night as well.

[LoadStar]

Ok, after playing around a bit, I've found a few more things that have disappointed me:

Under Passport, the guide would automatically display the next half hour's programming 5 minutes or less before the bottom or top of the hour. Under Navigator, it doesn't advance until the exact bottom or top of the hour. (Rank: Slightly annoying)
Unless I'm missing it, Series Recordings seem to have no choice - they record everything "Do Not Delete" (a.k.a. "KUID" or "Keep Until I Delete" in TiVo terminology). You can adjust individual episode recording options, but not across the entire series recording. (Rank: Rather annoying.)
Within the Access Menu, when you drill into something, for example "Sports" or "News" within the Free On Demand menu, it'd be nice if there were a clearer indication where you would return to when pressing the button for return. With all the screens within Access Menu looking exactly identical, and submenus within submenus, you can sometimes lose track of where you came from and where exactly you are. (Rank: More a preference or an opportunity for improvement than an annoyance)
"HDTV" and resolution indicator lights remain on when the cable box is off. (Rank: Slightly annoying)
Turning the box off dumps the record buffer. (Rank: Very annoying)
PIP only has a single size, down from a small and large size under Passport (Rank: Slightly annoying)


On the other hand, Navigator adds quite a few features that are very nice:

Closed captioning on mute (AFAIK, you only had "off" or "on" under Passport)
Hard drive space used (not available under Passport)
"HDTV Now" in the access menu (no comparable feature in Passport)
Sort recordings and scheduled recordings by program name (only way to adust sorting in Passport was to change their priority)
Did I mention black pillars? :rock: (Passport had gray pillars)
Recording log (I don't think Passport had a comparable feature)

[markd]

I dunno, I got it today too on my 8300HDs and I'm definitely with LoadStar here; it's not nearly as bad as I expected. The speed of mine ironically seems faster to me. It's a new interface that I'm not in love with (the look that is) but I'm not experiencing anything so far that has been a real problem. I did lose a lot from my series manager but I think some previous thoughts are correct; what I lost seem to be series that are not currently on and some that never will be again. It's nothing that really bothers me. If the Sarah Silverman show comes back on, I'll set it up again :D

All in all I'm not unhappy with this at all. What I will be unhappy about is if this does not bring more HD choices our way very soon. Since that seems to be (thought to be?) the reasoning behind the software switch, I'll give TWC the benefit of the doubt for a little while longer (yes, you all know that I just really don't want a dish on my house). I'm not sure how long I'll give them but let's just say I hope something happens soon.

[gparris]

Back in 2003, before I moved to an apt while my house was being built, I had both Directv and TWC for service...rather expensive with both.

But I had the best of both worlds at the time and I could do that again, if I really wanted to, but I would reduce my TWC bill to Digital Basic to get use of the HD DVRs (as I understand it I have to have that at least), so I could record all my HD locals, as antenna usage is useless where my new house is located.:(

More HD...oh yeah...Sci-Fi HD channel and a several others that we don't get from TWC is like "deja vu" all over again
That was why I got Directv to begin with back in '96...no Sci-Fi channel to begin with.;)

[Danimal]

Got it here in Burlington on my 8300HD last night sometime. I haven't had a chance to play around with it yet but the wife did complain that American Idol did not record tonight. I talked to her on the phone and asked her to look in the series manager to see what is still there. She told me that only the Tuesday night recording is in the series manager. :bang:

[Jack 1000]

I dunno, I got it today too on my 8300HDs and I'm definitely with LoadStar here; it's not nearly as bad as I expected. The speed of mine ironically seems faster to me. It's a new interface that I'm not in love with (the look that is) but I'm not experiencing anything so far that has been a real problem. I did lose a lot from my series manager but I think some previous thoughts are correct; what I lost seem to be series that are not currently on and some that never will be again. It's nothing that really bothers me. If the Sarah Silverman show comes back on, I'll set it up again :D

All in all I'm not unhappy with this at all. What I will be unhappy about is if this does not bring more HD choices our way very soon. Since that seems to be (thought to be?) the reasoning behind the software switch, I'll give TWC the benefit of the doubt for a little while longer (yes, you all know that I just really don't want a dish on my house). I'm not sure how long I'll give them but let's just say I hope something happens soon.

Yea,

With all of the negativity about the guide I am SHOCKED that the issues that I am experiencing are overall good. The problems are not a big deal. Now, for the rest of the country or different box models or configurations, who knows? I can only speak from my own experience.

One glitch that I found is that when doing Keyboard searches, episodes that are on multiple times will often be seen 2x in the guide, but with different headings. Let me give you an example. Let's say that I do a keyboard Search for Leave it to Beaver, and it is on TV Land at I don't know 12:30 pm on 4/21. But, let's say that Beaver is on a different channel also at 12:30. What I find is that after hitting select to view all listings of a title, one tier will say Leave it to Beaver at 12:30 and give the channel number (TV Land, 61) and the description. A second entry (always directly above or below the first) ALSO shows Leave it to Beaver at 12:30 but does NOT give a channel number. I have no idea which one to record. But than, I look at the Listings and find out that the '97 LITB MOVIE is also on the schedule. So, is Navigator confused with two different shows that have the exact same name?

The other thing is that although I don't use series manager, no one seems to know how Navigator defines a "New" episode? Is it considered as a first-run, or the first time it is shown in the guide, or the first time it is offered for the 7x day period contingent on how far "Loading Data" goes from day to day?

The Keyboard shows WAY TOO MUCH information at once. It was easier to do a B, Find Shows, and than narrow my theme down. Once you know the subcategory of a theme, searching isn't bad at all. If you look for Movies and All Movies, it's going to take a while because your search is much too general. TWC is trying to consolidate a lot of info in one place. But I think the question is, how can you narrow down general searches? The answer is to somehow make title searches more efficient.

I can use page+/- for very quick scroll. Guide data disappears during the scroll, but comes back quick. I heard some boxes have trouble with this feature. What I am noticing is not so much a slower guide, but scrolling that does not have as "Smooth a feel to it." Passport guides along. Navigator is more jerky, go, jerky, go. You don't smoothly progress from cell to cell in the Guide's grid on Navigator. You don't see the type of pleasant "shift" from one time block to the next. Things just appear without the smoothness of the old version. But it's only about 1-1.5 seconds longer if that. I wouldn't say the guide is slower, just more jerky in going from cell to cell. But this is not a big problem.

Things look good overall, so I am going to give my current Navigator experience a C+.

Jack

[markd]

Another thing that seems gone (which would seem easy for TWC to fix) is the timeline position while manipulating live TV. During the Brewers game last night, I paused to rewind a little bit and I used to get a marker with the time on it as it moved through the timeline. Now there is no frame of reference. If I wanted to rewind to 8:30, I really couldn't (I'd just have to guess). This is pretty annoying and I hope it gets fixed in the first wave of updates.

I don't know if it's just because it was newly pushed to my boxes yesterday, but the only info in my Guide was for yesterday. I had to do a day forward and then another day in order for some of my scheduled shows to show up in the DVR list (I was curious about the DVR display stuff). After getting a few upcoming shows in there, I'm also not a big fan on having to select the list twice to basically see it. Who really needs to sort upcoming shows by date or title!? Just show me my upcoming shows by date. At first I thought my shows weren't being scheduled until I realized I had to select which view I wanted first :rolleyes

[dicktwi]

Thanks for your comments, Jack 1000, now you have Navigator forced upon you like the rest or most, of us.

Finally, the banner button for long duration had to be changed to medium, but that was not a big inconvenience, just the mess that is Navigator:
.:(

I have Navigator on an 8300HDC box and I'm not able to find any setting to change banner duration. Where did you find it?

[LoadStar]

I have Navigator on an 8300HDC box and I'm not able to find any setting to change banner duration. Where did you find it?

In MDN, the banner setting is "Settings" -> "Display" -> "Banner Duration." I can't tell you if the setting is the same in ODN or not.

[basshive]

The other thing is that although I don't use series manager, no one seems to know how Navigator defines a "New" episode? Is it considered as a first-run, or the first time it is shown in the guide, or the first time it is offered for the 7x day period contingent on how far "Loading Data" goes from day to day?

I do not know how *gator decides what is new but I do know that when a new episode of a show is coming, multiple airings of that same new episode will show as new in the guide.

I have had to reset my series more times than I can tell you. Some series record non stop every time they air even though its told ONLY new and only 3, etc. I have just given up on them and deleted the series and now record manually :(

[Jack 1000]

I lost the little TWC logo at the bottom of the IPG screen. Maybe they are trying to tell me something? LOL! Actually, things are going much better than expected with the new guide. You know what I would like to see? A way that the guide would only show the content for the channels to which you subscribe. There are so many instances of "There are multiple listings for this title." Than you open up the folder, and the movie or event is on a channel you don't get! This would cut down the search results and overkill of information in searches.

Jack

[LoadStar]

I lost the little TWC logo at the bottom of the IPG screen. Maybe they are trying to tell me something? LOL! Actually, things are going much better than expected with the new guide. You know what I would like to see? A way that the guide would only show the content for the channels to which you subscribe. There are so many instances of "There are multiple listings for this title." Than you open up the folder, and the movie or event is on a channel you don't get! This would cut down the search results and overkill of information in searches.

Jack

Agreed, but I'm sure they don't do this because listing the channels and the programs on them gives them the ability to "upsell" every time you see a show that you might like on a channel you don't get.

I'd also love to see a "favorites only" or "all channels" selection in the guide. This would make scanning the channels so much easier, but this too probably won't happen for the same reason.

[MDR]

Just an update from last week when I first got Navigator.
Last Fri., I had the set on while watching TV (actually on computer with TV as background noise). I had the same channel on the whole time. External drive was hooked up to the SA8500HDC. When I tried to change the channel the box was frozen and the only way out was a hard reboot.
I "assumed" that the system would buffer to the drive with the most space like it did with Passport. Here again I can only speculate that this isn't true and I was a victim of external drive going to sleep and crashing the unit as reported by others.
All the shows I had recorded Thur. and Fri. were lost. The system log stated it was unable to record (code 13) these shows. The strange thing is I had actually watched 3 of these recorded shows that it claimed it was unable to record. Luckily I was able to go online and catch the others that were totally lost.
I disconnected the external drive and haven't seen any problems with recording and playback since then (Knock Wood).
Still not that crazy about the user interface and some of it's quirks, but at least I haven't lost any recordings. My biggest gripe now is with the joke for a hard drive they have in the box. This thing fills up so fast that you can't wait to watch at your leisure. That's why I'm still looking at getting Directv next month.


Another note: My mother also got updated on her SA8300HD. Hers took the update OK ( not like it killed mine so I have the HDC now). We're off the same headend so what affects one should affect the other.
I tried accessing the menus for both the 9 and 16 Page diagnostics and it didn't work on hers. For jollies I tried the old(Passport) way. I got a 28 page list. From what I could figure her version is 2.4.2-92.
There are obvious differences between our two units(HD vs. HDC). So when people start comparing we've got the apples/oranges problem. Not just the difference between markets but in the same market.

While in her 28 page diagnostic, I noticed it still listed hard drive space and free space like passport did. In fact my first impression was how similar this looked to Passport's diagnostic. I've added this last tidbit becuase someone in this forum or another asked about this feature.

Sorry about the length of this post, but I'll probably be on a Directv forum in the near future.

MDR

P.S. No banner duration in ODN Version.

[Jack 1000]

OK something interesting,

Most of you know that when you select a future program to record in the IPG that it shows up in Green as scheduled. However, I selected two programs to record later tonight by going to get them through a Search. The Record List of future recordings has them listed. But if I go to the grid, the color of the show is not Green. So I don't know how this will be handled. I don't want to have to redo it in the grid, because than I might get a conflict. I'll let you know what happens.

Jack

[flash]

Ok, we got hit by Navigator yesterday and the on screen caller ID still doesn't work.
I even looked at the call log in the menu and it doesn't show squat.

Still only paying $125 for 5 Megs internet, unlimited phone service and an HD DVR
so until somebody can compete with those prices and offers free repairs........ OH I know I'm dreaming but a guy's gotta dream sometimes. :blush:

[Jack 1000]

OK, we got hit by Navigator yesterday and the on screen caller ID still doesn't work.
I even looked at the call log in the menu and it doesn't show squat.

Still only paying $125 for 5 Megs Internet, unlimited phone service and an HD DVR
so until somebody can compete with those prices and offers free repairs........ OH I know I'm dreaming but a guy's gotta dream sometimes. :blush:

As much as it would suck to wait on hold because of everyone getting Navigator now, you should call and say that "My caller ID on TV isn't showing up." You don't have to say "I haven't had it for a long time", but maybe they could fix it. When I wasn't getting my Premium on Demand, I called and although it took about 3 hours after the box hit, it solved the problem. Caller ID on TV is very cool. This could just be an activation issue. Good luck!

Jack

[Jack 1000]

OK something interesting,

Most of you know that when you select a future program to record in the IPG that it shows up in Green as scheduled. However, I selected two programs to record later tonight by going to get them through a Search. The Record List of future recordings has them listed. But if I go to the grid, the color of the show is not Green. So I don't know how this will be handled. I don't want to have to redo it in the grid, because than I might get a conflict. I'll let you know what happens.

Jack

It's OK. The program scheduled to be recorded only changes color on the grid. Scheduling a recording only changes the color recording confirmation when setting this up inside the grid! Note this difference from Passport, and that you didn't do anything wrong in setting up your recording if this happens to you. (In Passport, users got a color coded confirmation of their recording, no matter where they were in the IPG.) Also, this relates to the MDN version of Navigator (No C-Non-OCAP boxes) in our area. Not sure how the C-boxes, or different Navigator versions outside of Wisconsin, deal with this information.

Jack

[Jack 1000]

Good Navigator News!

On my old Passport software, I would get these freezing screens for a few seconds where there was nothing on them. (Channel 14 in my Metro Milwaukee area did this all the time.) It always showed a blank screen because it was a local Govt. Access channel with nothing on it. In Navigator, NO FREEZE up when going to and from that channel. Who would have expected that?

Jack

[nick3092]

I have the MDN version, and I have to say it is much faster than it's ODN sibling. Speed was one of the biggest concerns I had after seeing how it performed for multiple people I know with the ODN C boxes. So far, I don't have any major complaints. But so far is the key here. I've only had it for a few days....

I do miss the C button showing me all the times a program is airing from in the guide. And I do miss the actual time being displayed above the marker when your forwarding/rewinding through shows. But these are minor issues so far. I was pleasently surprised to see that my HDMI connection is still working, and working well. I read a lot of people having trouble with HDMI and Navigator.

Now I just have to hope my box never dies, or I will have to endure the pain of the ODN boxes.

[zoothorn]

I'm a few days into the new Navigator software and overall not having much of an issue with it. One thing I do miss that I haven't seen mentioned is when fast forwarding through a recorded program I used to be able to jump 15 minutes at a time by pushing the 'sideways' arrow. That doesn't seem to work with the new software.

Anyone know how to make that work or is it gone for good...?

Thanks,

Zoot

[LoadStar]

I'm a few days into the new Navigator software and overall not having much of an issue with it. One thing I do miss that I haven't seen mentioned is when fast forwarding through a recorded program I used to be able to jump 15 minutes at a time by pushing the 'sideways' arrow. That doesn't seem to work with the new software.

Anyone know how to make that work or is it gone for good...?

Thanks,

Zoot

To jump ahead 15 minutes, press and hold the FF (or rewind) button for at least 5 seconds. To continue to jump ahead, continue to hold the button down.

[zoothorn]

Excellent...thanks. That's what I was looking for.

Also, I know I read somewhere that when fast forwarding the 'actual time' of where you were in the show didn't appear like it used to with Passport. While it's not down to the second I do notice tonight that the minute of where you are in the show does appear over on the left side of the banner.

Not sure if that was there all along or not?? Maybe they just added it? That would be good news if they can slip in features that quickly...

[zoothorn]

It doesn't show the time when backing up a live recording. Only on a show that was previously recorded...

[Jack 1000]

I'd also like to ask,

"Who's brilliant idea was it to develop Navigator when this came about 6 years ago? Most likely this was a team decision that has certainly NOT been well received by the general public. I wonder what "they" are doing now? Were these independent engineers hired by TWC for the project, and then they left for China, India, or Pakistan, never to be heard from again? Then, this program starts getting developed, and put through testing with tons of bugs. Maybe they can't (or couldn't) call back the original programs from Maestro who developed the source code for Navigator. Than in compliance with FCC regulations mandating integrated cable cards in the new C-boxes after July, 1, 2007, the USA programmers who were less experienced may have had to write the OCAP software for the C-boxes on their own, going off of the original MDN platform, that was buggy from the start.

Therefore, within the last two years, TWC may be looking for "outside house" help in trying to fix the bugs in two different platforms (non-C box) MDN and (C-box) OCAP. The "original team" from six years back, may not even be with TWC anymore and have gone on to other projects. This leaves the poor in-house engineers left to clean up a huge mess and patch the bugs. If this original source code was buggy, this could take years to get the bugs out.

I wonder if the "new team" if there is a new team, is looking at this and saying. "Based on customer communications and problems in particular with the OCAP box models, we really should have gone with the Passport Update for SVD support."

This is just my theory.

Jack

[Jack 1000]

Other good news,

My brother got his box replaced and Navigator is working better for him because of it. The whole family likes having the Access Menu's (News and Weather Now, and Sports Now) all in one place. I did mention that the keyboard needs Word Search and Wraparound capability. Also the ability to gray out letters un-related to program searches. On the keyboard, when you narrow down your category search and bring up the keyboard, the search should BEGIN with the show that you have narrowed down by category. Having to retype the data, after narrowing a Find Shows search down is stupid. Everyone seems to agree on this.

We need a "View This Channel Now" returned as an option on selecting future IPG programs as well.

I sent this info to our TWC division and it is going to their tech development department. Navigator is doing much better than I had expected.

Jack

[Jack 1000]

It should be noted that there are other cable companies who have written in-house IPG's, and to my knowledge, there were not problems with them. Adelphia and Charter come to mind. I do know that complaints run rampant on all the cable companies who are monopolies and have pretty *****ty customer service overall. However, it is possible, from the examples above that a quality in-house guide can be constructed without the frustrations and mess.

I have been very lucky with Navigator so far (knock on wood.) However, I fail to understand how TWC can not only provide a guide who's performance fluctuates so much, not just from state to state, but box to box. Furthermore, to take away basic standard features, such as Keyboard Word Search, and a "View This Channel Now" is just plain ludicrous! To even further the enigma that is Navigator, SOME features are nice, such as the DVR full indicator gage, the ability to have instance access to lists of Kids, Weather/News, and Sports Programs, and the appearance of the On Demand Channel Menus. The Sports Menu needs more categories in the list. Some of the categories are ambiguous:

1.) There is a Classic Movie category. But what defines a Classic Movie? Is it because it's old? Is it because it's seen by so many populations over the years? The word "Classic" means different things to different people. Passport had a more specific list.

2.) A similar story exists with the Sports Category. As I mentioned previously, there is no category for Sports that should obviously be included. (i.e Tennis.) You have to look under Sports Misc, or go to the Access Menu (A) and select Sports Now, to find some categories that should already be in the List but are not included.

3.) But then you have advanced options that serve no purpose, for example finding a movie by Title, without using the keyboard. You have to Page Up/Down using that button, and hope that you have a fast enough box that can keep up. But there is no Power Search mode with Page+/- like there was with Passport. For Movie Searches, you are almost forced to search by a sub-category for Movies. Select All Movies, and you'll be sitting there for the rest of your life. And what is the purpose of searching in the DVR Show List by Title? Do you ever need to know if something you have recorded if it's alphabetized? I sure don't. You want to know the date when a show was recorded, so that you can get to the content as easily as possible.

I think Navigator has potential, but it's too far behind the times with the features and reliability that should not even be an issue for the #2 cable company in the country. There are some things that are OK, but nothing revolutionary that a person would classify this as an "Upgrade." Navigator looks more like a different, and at times confusing, way of presenting information, who's features often look cluttered, unfinished, and as if they were put together by different people representing an older technology time-frame.

Jack

[Jack 1000]

Navigator Updates:

It appears that TWC has fixed the duplicate TV Land channel bug, which I described in a previous thread. I have noticed some test channels around the 1800 range. Do not know what this is about. Could this be a part of the SDV transition?

The first warm reboot manually done by me was tonight, since the change-over on April 16. I had done a time change on a non-series recording. (Record Show With Options) while playing back a recording. I don't know if the bug produced itself at that time. But I originally went back because I had added 15 minutes to a show, and than changed it to end as scheduled. Than for some reason, when I went to the Find Shows Category, the indicator would show the description of a show and than say that it was On Demand when it wasn't.

So I did the warm reboot (VOL+/VOL-/INFO) keys held down at the same time and everything is back to normal. I also went back, deleted any scheduled recordings and redid them, just to make sure that they were going to be fresh. Before rebooting, I did hit Record on a test channel that I was watching and it was fine. (Saving the recording that I had been watching.)

On the 8300 Maestro DVR, users should note that in following the procedure above that the boots are instantaneous. Passport had about a 5-10 second delay before rebooting. The MDN version of Navigator's boot-time on my 8300 DVR was about 3-3.5 minutes.

Jack

[nick3092]

Navigator Updates:

It appears that TWC has fixed the duplicate TV Land channel bug, which I described in a previous thread. I have noticed some test channels around the 1800 range. Do not know what this is about. Could this be a part of the SDV transition?


Who knows with TW. :confused: But I just checked the diagnostic screens on my MDN box, and SDV is still not enabled.

[Jack 1000]

NEW NAVIGATOR NEWS:

Hey everyone,

Just found out that a new high-res version of Navigator is being rolled out GRADUALLY across the country, and (hopefully) before the end of the year, or early next year, Milwaukee and Metro areas will get this upgrade:

Here are some screen-shots:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=122190&d=1224185415

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=122191&d=1224185415

Based on this, we are FINALLY moving away from the Beta look of the current guide that looks like it came out of a High School Computer Education Final Exam Project. At least it LOOKS slicker.

Now, before you all pledge your allegiance to TWC (yea, right, hahaha) I DO NOT know if or what new functions are, or will be included with this upgrade. Right now, I am waiting for a Keyboard Keyword Search and an expanded Sports Categories List. If we could at least get that, it would be cool!

Also note that Start Over, (a feature ON SELECTED LICENSED CHANNELS) will soon be available, which will allow users to play back shows from the beginning if they happen to catch them in the middle or near the end of a show. However, you will NOT be able to Fast Forward using this feature to bypass commercials. You will still need a DVR box and to have a show completely recorded to do that.

Here is the complete link from the AVS forums so you can all follow along as new developments come out. I am Satch Man over there btw.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=723830&pp=30&highlight=journal&page=196

Jack

[LoadStar]

So... I must be the only one who can't see a bit of difference between the version shown in the screenshots, and the one currently running on the 8300HD?

[kevbeck122]

Other than some color differences, it doesn't look any different to me.

[Jack 1000]

Other than some color differences, it doesn't look any different to me.

Do you think that there will be more than color differences in the guide when we get this new version? Maybe there will be some enhancements that we can't see on those screens?

As an update, how has everyone been doing with Navigator stability?

Jack

[kevbeck122]

I hope so... but I'm trying to switch to directv soon, so it probably won't affect me.

Navigator is still somewhat slow on my HDC box.. and it takes 5-10 minutes before the IR receiver's line of site expands (I need to be directly in front of the box for that first 5-10 minutes to use the remote). Other than that.. things are fine.

[duncantuna]

That's strange .. I compared those two screen shots you in those two links .. I don't notice any difference between my box and those pics. Maybe it's less blue in color, but that could be the photo. Regardless .. looks 99% the same to me.

My 8300HDC has looked that way since I got it 4 months ago.

[Kenoman]

I compared the screen shots to my guide and I see no difference either.
Have a question for Jack. Do you have the SA8300HD or the SA8300HDC?

[LoadStar]

It's interesting that we all agree that the screen shots are the same as what we have now (with possible exception of the color, which could be an artifact of the TV set being photographed and/or the camera itself)... yet Jack hails it as "moving away from the Beta look of the current guide that looks like it came out of a High School Computer Education Final Exam Project" and commenting that "it LOOKS slicker."

I don't mean this as a knock on you, Jack, honestly. I just find it interesting because I've never understood the comments from many posters, not just yourself, that the Navigator interface looks amateurish ("like a Commodore 64" was a way one poster described it). The reason I never understood was because I've been seeing the interface that looks like the above all along.

Which, of course, leads me to wonder: what were people seeing previously? Did it look that drastically different than what I was seeing that would cause them to describe it as amateurish? Or was it simply people just complaining because it was _different_?

[Jack 1000]

I compared the screen shots to my guide and I see no difference either.
Have a question for Jack. Do you have the SA8300HD or the SA8300HDC?

I have the SA8300HD. I believe those screen shots were taken from an MDN (no C) box. The link was taken from the AVS forums and I think the picture was originally taken from somebody in one of the Carolina states. The TWC Navigator San Diego residents, according to the forum is getting an upgrade next month. Based on that forum, they actually have a new division President who is amazingly on the ball, and seems to respond to e-mails, phone calls, and is even appointing someone to watch the forums:

Here is a link to the San Diego Board:

http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/2/2.html

Posting this type of information will allow us to gage new Navigator versions in other markets. Once again variables such as where you live, the type of box you have, and the levels of PR communications at the local division can influence roll-out, and even to this day, stability. (although stability is way better than it used to be.)

Now I see a difference in the color. Do MDN and OCAP Navigator versions have different looking guides here in Wisconsin as of now? My MDN box as an all blue on blue background, where blue is the dominate color on the grid and Search screens. The pictures of the upgrade to me at least show some red and green as highlight prompts on channels selected and in the columns of information to make the text and graphics stand out more. The San Diego forum has copied those pics and users say it looks nicer than what they have. My MDN Navigator has always been the dark blue/light blue screen throughout the guide. I see better graphics in those pictures, but if that is the ONLY thing, it's not going to mean much.

Jack

[Jack 1000]

It's interesting that we all agree that the screen shots are the same as what we have now (with possible exception of the color, which could be an artifact of the TV set being photographed and/or the camera itself)... yet Jack hails it as "moving away from the Beta look of the current guide that looks like it came out of a High School Computer Education Final Exam Project" and commenting that "it LOOKS slicker."

I don't mean this as a knock on you, Jack, honestly. I just find it interesting because I've never understood the comments from many posters, not just yourself, that the Navigator interface looks amateurish ("like a Commodore 64" was a way one poster described it). The reason I never understood was because I've been seeing the interface that looks like the above all along.

Which, of course, leads me to wonder: what were people seeing previously? Did it look that drastically different than what I was seeing that would cause them to describe it as amateurish? Or was it simply people just complaining because it was _different_?

Good post!

I really don't know how the very very first Navigator guides looked. Yea, I remember the C-64 comparisons and I think that many people came up with the comment because TWC was trying to market this thing as "WOW!" and than when "WOW!" in reality turned to "*****" and "F**k" with all of Navigator's early problems from the initial rollouts in Lincoln Nebraska and those early tests around January-March 2007 on some boxes here in Milwaukee as well, people were pretty outraged and the guide just did not look "modern" to them. That's how those comments came about. I still think that Passport's Guide looks nicer and actually think that this "new" guide's colors "look" closer to Passport. However, notice that I have "look" in quotes, because until we physically see the changes in our homes and have a chance to evaluate them, we are still basing data on a picture, and I certainly agree that camera distortion can be an issue.

I agree that most of Navigator's early complaints were based on two things. Exactly as you said above, the early versions were different and extremely unreliable.

Jack

[LoadStar]

Well, this is definitely illuminating. I unfortunately had to exchange my 8300HD box, and all they had were 8300HDCs. Now I can see there is a definite difference between the MDN and ODN interfaces. The differences are slight in many cases, but overall they give the MDN version a much smoother appearance.

The pictures linked to above looked like what I had on the 8300HD, which is why I was confused.

[Jack 1000]

Well, this is definitely illuminating. I unfortunately had to exchange my 8300HD box, and all they had were 8300HDCs. Now I can see there is a definite difference between the MDN and ODN interfaces. The differences are slight in many cases, but overall they give the MDN version a much smoother appearance.

The pictures linked to above looked like what I had on the 8300HD, which is why I was confused.

Thanks Loadstar,

Did you get any new features like Keyboard Category Search? (I know that's probably a dream........Damn!) How is your IPG different?

Jack

[LoadStar]

Thanks Loadstar,

Did you get any new features like Keyboard Category Search? (I know that's probably a dream........Damn!) How is your IPG different?

Jack

Functionally, it's almost the same. Two notable differences:
1) On ODN, at 5 minutes prior to the next time slot, the guide automatically displays the next time slot. For example, at 11:55, you see the 12:00 time slot instead of the 11:30 slot. (This is how Explorer Echo behaved.) On MDN, the guide insisted on staying on the 11:30 time slot right until it turns to 12:00.

(A positive result of this:
- on ODN, if it's 11:55, the guide displays the 12:00 programs. Pressing SEL to select one of these programs will actually tune to the selected channel.
- on MDN, if it's 11:55, you actually have to switch to the 12:00 programs yourself; if you were to press SEL at that point on one of the 12:00 channels, you get a list of recording options instead of tuning to the channel. You would actually have to backtrack to the 11:30 time slot then press SEL to actually tune to that channel. Really, really annoying.)

2) There doesn't appear to be a way to re-prioritize season passes on ODN. On MDN, you could move them up or down to reprioritize them.

Appearance-wise, it somehow feels a little "simpler." Without having the MDN box back to compare them side-by-side it's hard to give concrete examples, and I don't want to compare to the screen shots shown above in case they weren't accurate to what we actually had here. It's definitely similar, but some of the interface elements are a little flatter on ODN than on MDN.

[Jack 1000]

Features Added!

We now have an expanded sports list and what appear to be more browsing choices under the "B" Find Shows Category.

Jack

[Jack 1000]

FYI:

When I was following the Lin TV/TWC debate affecting the Fox Cities regions of Northern Wisconsin, I got into some discussion of Navigator, and a poster said that in the extreme Northern areas of Wisconsin that TWC STILL has Passport up there! So I wonder what their plans are for roll-outs to Green Bay and surrounding cities?

I told them that Navigator has gotten a lot better, but that people still miss a lot of the functionalities of Passport. I anticipate between 1st and 2nd Quarter, 2009 Navigator will be rolled out there.

Also, do you know when we are supposed to be getting Start Over added to our boxes? I can't see TWC putting Start Over on those boxes that still have Passport, although they did add Caller ID on TV to Passport boxes during the transition from Passport to Navigator for Digital Cable and Digital Phone subs.

Anyone know a Northern Wisconsin time-line for Navigator or the addition of Start Over to our current boxes?

Jack

[Jack 1000]

Strange Navigator issue tonight:

I was watching a DVR recording and noticed that the sound on the right side of my headphones was lower than normal. (I normally listen through the headphones) In playing a DVD the same issue seemed to be happening. Than Tru TV channel 49 had a Please Wait Message as I was scanning through the channels. Nothing too strange their but under my Audio Settings (I have an 8300-HD (No C) DVR running Mystro Navigator) they showed to use the Variable Range for listening through the set-top box and Fixed for listening through a sound system. Didn't those used to be reversed? Is TWC experimenting with some new sound range or feature on Navigator. It now says to use Variable Sound instead of Fixed for controlling to the box. In other words, the default setting was changed on its own.

After Tru TV came back, I noticed that the sound had to be turned up to about 1.5x louder than what I usually have it set. Oh yea, and my box volume is up all the way.

Anyone else having sound issues?

Jack