Need advice on a new HDTV!

[SNO N YET]

Hello all! First post here, of many. Hope to learn a TON!

Anyway, live with the parents yet....my brother, my dad and my self are finishing off our basement: Drop ceiling, bar and backbar with black leather chairs, pool table (black felt), black ping-pong table, black felted card table (which matches the bar, along with the same black leather chairs.)

Next step is HDTV,...we are looking at a Mitsubishi DLP 52" or a 62", leaning toward the 52", do to the seating which is pretty close to the set. Is Mitsubishi a good brand to go with? Looking at the NON-Diamond series.

Have Charter Digital Cable right now. We aren't going to be doing any recording or anything real advanced YET :)

Thanks in advance!:)

[FiberOptic]

Not familiar with the Mitsu, I just purchased the Samsung 61" and I love it. After doing a lot of research it appears Samsung is the leader in DLP technology

[Gregg Lengling]

Remember that the Samsung's use the new DLP3 chip which was introduced at the same time as the DLP2+ chip. The difference being is the 2+ chip is larger and requires less magnification to project the images, thus resulting in a better, brighter image with less distortion than the 3 chip.

Toshiba uses the DLP2+ chip so make sure you check those out.

[cjucoder]

Originally posted by SNO N YET
we are looking at a Mitsubishi DLP 52" or a 62", leaning toward the 52", do to the seating which is pretty close to the set.

I sit only 8 feet from my 61" DLP. I love it, your whole field of vision is enveloped. I was warned that is too close and when you are too close it can strain your eyes. After almost a year now, so far no one visiting me has reported strain and I myself have been known to spend an entire Sunday in front of it with no problem :D. The only time I get any eye strain is when watching more than one movie in a row with subtitles. Your focus has to move pretty far from text to action. I suspect this is an individual thing, this is only MHO and experience.

[Gregg Lengling]

The "Suggested" (notice the quotes) viewing distance from a TV is 1-1/2 to 2 times the diagonal measurement of a tv. That means a 62" set requires 7.5 to 10 feet and it's not because of straining the eyes. It is to combat the Tennis Match effect of having to move your eyes or head back and forth to focus on all the action. I have a 65" set that is around 7 feet, which is considered too close, however I've never noticed the Tennis effect. So I would safely say if you are 6 feet away from a 62" set your probably going to be more than happy.

[StarvingForHDTV]

I also suggest getting the larger display.

They have a nice selection of TVs at the new Colder's store in Grafton. One of the sales staff should be able to show you the different DLP RPTVs they have, along with other displays you should consider.

[HiFiTy]

SNO,

After noticing that you have a black theme going on in your basement to be, another TV to look at is the Hitachi Cineform LCD projection TV. It comes in 50, 60, and 70 inch versions. It has a beautiful gloss black cabinet and matching stand and I think it is one of the more attractive microdisplay TVs on the market. Check them out here:

http://www.hitachi.us/tv/browse/lcd/lcd_index.shtml

PM me if you have further questions.

[SNO N YET]

Thanks for all the replies so far!

I understand the whole viewing distance thing. It's like sitting in front row at a movie theater. Our couches are set up a litte further from the TV than I thought. Measured last night and couch is about 10', so I guess we'll have to go with the 60"+ range, darn:) Lot of the time we won't be at the couches but at the bar, or a game table.

Had some PMs and posts (greatly appreciated) and it seems Mitsu, Toshiba, Samsung, and Hitachi, are those most recommended.

My dad and I plan to do some shopping/comparing real soon. I'll let everyone know what happens.

Thanks again to all!

[SNO N YET]

Originally posted by HiFiTy
SNO,

After noticing that you have a black theme going on in your basement to be, another TV to look at is the Hitachi Cineform LCD projection TV. It comes in 50, 60, and 70 inch versions. It has a beautiful gloss black cabinet and matching stand and I think it is one of the more attractive microdisplay TVs on the market. Check them out here:

http://www.hitachi.us/tv/browse/lcd/lcd_index.shtml

PM me if you have further questions.

That set is VERY sharp!!! I'll definitely have to check that out. Although we are kind of shying away from the LCDs.

Did Hitachi kind of start off the "BIG SCREEN" TVs?

[mitsfan]

I have compared the Samsung, Toshiba, and Mitsubishi. The
colors on the Mitsubishi appear to be the most natural and the
detail is amazing. You can literally see the pores on peoples faces! It uses the HD2+ chip and includes the integrated tuner for air and cable. The only drawback is that it has a screen saver on it, however, it can be taken off it there is too much glare. Its a sweet set!!

[SNO N YET]

Checked out a few sets at the American on Saturday. I thought the Mitsu picture was VERY sharp and clean, but the picture did seem a little dark compared to other sets, like the Toshiba, and the Panasonic that were next to it.

The girlfriend and I walked away a bit and did a comparison. We couldn't see the a difference in picture detail from this distance, but could see the brighter picture in the Toshiba, and the Panasonic. I am taking into consideration that the set will be viewed from across the basement, but not all the time.

More detail/research to be done :)

[StarvingForHDTV]

Make sure the settings on the adjacent TVs are correct as best as you can judge in a showroom. Brightness can be controlled via settings and it wouldn't be out of the question for a store to jack up the settings on some of the TVs. If I were a saleman, I might consider making the TVs which provided the most personal profits look as good as possible. Maybe even tone down some of the other sets. It would make the sales pitch easier.... I'm not saying this happened to you, but it's not outside the realm of possibilities in my opinion.

Good luck with your decision. Have you looked at the D-ILA TVs? That open box special in another thread might be worth checking into.

[Gregg Lengling]

I've seen a number of stores where the salesmen play with the settings and try to make everything look the same or make one set look better than others. This is not every store however as I know of at least one where they will constantly check the sets all week to make sure everything is set to the factory defaults on controls. If you aren't sure just grab the remote (remember to hold it close to the sensor on the set so you don't start changing every other tv of that brand in the store) and go into the menu and check the settings, usually they have a reset box where you can reset it to manufacturers settings. Also be wary if one looks much brighter than the next as on most Micro Displays (light engines) that most of them have a bulb saver that allows you to run the lamp at a lower level for darker rooms to extend the life of the bulb, this is a very easy way to make one look brighter than the other).

[SNO N YET]

Originally posted by StarvingForHDTV
....Have you looked at the D-ILA TVs? That open box special in another thread might be worth checking into.

Yes I did,...they had an open item one (waukesha store) soon as you walked in. I think the guy said something about $900 off.

Now the D-ILA has a chip for each of the 3 colors? Is that correct?

[SNO N YET]

I was thinking the settings might have been messed with. When my dad goes along, I'll definately check to see if the settings are at the default factory settings.

The guy at American said the Mitsu WD-52525 is being discontinued, anyone what model is going to be replacing it?

[Gregg Lengling]

Originally posted by SNO N YET
Yes I did,...they had an open item one (waukesha store) soon as you walked in. I think the guy said something about $900 off.

Now the D-ILA has a chip for each of the 3 colors? Is that correct?

Yes they use the LCoS chips so the system is similar to a LCD set as the light beam is split into the 3 primary colors and reflected off the chips and recombined for projection. The difference is that the LCoS chips are more reflective than LCD plus the addressing is done in the substrate so there is less space between each pixel allowing for a smoother picture without the crosshatch effect.

Just a note, I don't think they make the D-ILA in an integrated model, they are only HD Ready and have only a single OTA analog tuner.

[mrmike]

Originally posted by Gregg Lengling
Just a note, I don't think they make the D-ILA in an integrated model, they are only HD Ready and have only a single OTA analog tuner.

They do make the 52" in an integrated model, the 61" integrated model is delayed until feb/march timeframe.

[Gregg Lengling]

Interesting as they don't show them on their website and I've never seen any in a store.
Oh well I guess it'll happen, according to the rules everything over 36" made after July 1, 2005 will be integrated as I understand it and 1/2 of the mid size below 36 will also have to be integrated.

Now if they could just finish up the specs on bi-directional cable cards so we don't have to rent those boxes from TWC and Charter.

[mrmike]

The 52" integrated model is the HD-52Z795, it's been shipped. The 61" model (HD-61Z795) was announced but never shipped. The new ones coming out this year are:

HD-70G886 March (grey cabinet, 2nd gen scaler)
HD-61Z886/786 March (grey/black cabinet, 2nd gen scaler)
HD-56G886/786 June (grey/black cabinet, 2nd gen scaler)
HD-52G886/786 July (grey/black cabinet, 2nd gen scaler)
HD-70FH96 Fall (Late 3Q) (1080p, black cabinet)
HD-61FH96 Fall (Late 3Q) (1080p, black cabinet)

"All are ATSC tuner/CableCARD™-equipped, feature PC inputs, and dual IEEE 1394 inputs"

The 70" models have pcmcia/memory card slots.

-MM

[StarvingForHDTV]

70" 1080p!!! That sounds pretty tempting..... Imagine your PC hooked up to that..... (Drooling)

[mitsfan]

The HDILA uses three chips in it, its a hybrid of the L-COS technology that never took ground due to building problems. The advantage to HDILA is that
the picture is bright and a prism produces the color for the picture so there are no moving parts in the tv set. DLP still has the highest contrast level between LCD, HDILA, and DLP which will get you a truer color. The DLP uses a color wheel to produce the color for the picture instead of the prism that LCD and HDILA use in their sets. The Chip to look for is the HD2-plus chip in a DLP because it gets you the greatest contrast ratio of 2500-1, hence the best color and detail (especially in dark scenery like a movie). The Mitsubishi. Toshiba, and Samsung Tantus Series use the HD2-plus chip. JVC has exclusive rights to the HDILA technology and Hitachi and Sony produce the LCD rear projection tv with Hitachi building the light engines for the industry.
As far as the Mitsubishi 52525, Mitsubishi is still carrying on with it. Models do not change late summer, early fall. So I don't know where the info came from. I am in sales with these products and never heard that from Mitsubishi. I hope this helps a bit.

[SNO N YET]

I'm back!

Well, this past Saturday my dad was on his way home from the airport and asked if I would meet him at Flanners in Brookfield. So the girlfriend and I met him there.

After 2+ hours of looking around, debating, and deciding, this is what we left with.

MITSUBISHI - WD-62725 - DLP TV
SONY - STR-DE697 - Receiver
DEFINITIVE - ProCinema 60 - Speakers (2 Sets to complete the 7.1, the 3 extra speakers and sub will be used on other end of the basement for when we have music playing)
SONY - DVP-NS975V - DVD Player

Well, the TV's waiting for me,
Later Jeremy

[gparris]

The only thing I would have changed is to have got the Sony 997 model instead as it has more power, video upconversion for your composite/S-video inputs (if you use them) and the Dolby ProLogic IIx feature, which makes for the most realistic 7.1 sound processing from all sources-the 697 has only ProLogic ll, good for 5.1 only or Neo:6 (for 6.1). :(

My Denon has the PLllx and I did notice the difference when I exchanged it for the previous model, on a trial basis and kept the newer surround processing.
When it was time to get the basement rec room setup with the Sony 60" HDTV, my choice for price and latest surround sound processing was the 997 for that reason-it really does make a difference with every sound source.
(I wonder if the salesperson you had knew any better?) :confused:

Anyway, outside of the receiver, the speakers and HDTV set seem an amazing setup and good luck with the installation! ;)

[cjucoder]

Jeremy, sweeeeeet. Can you post some pics? I too am fixing up my basement (almost done!) and love to see what other people are doing and how you arrange things. Unlike you getting all pieces at once I've been collecting one-at-a-time for about a year now. Did Flanners give you a package deal since you got all that stuff? I've often wondered if they do that kind of thing.

Please post your impressions once all your goodies are hooked up!!!

[SNO N YET]

gparris:
So you are saying with that receiver pretty much only performs the ProLogic in a 5.1 setup??? Still in the learning process, so more detail would be greatly appreciated. Would the 897 becompareable to the 997 as far as the ProLogicx goes?

cjucoder:
Ya, I'll definitely take some pictures soon. I believe Flanners gave us the "sale price" on everything, but I can't be 100% sure about that.

[gparris]

Only the Sony 997 receiver does a capable job of taking your 2-channel audio sources like VHS tapes, cable programs in PCM stereo and Dolby 2.0 and converts them using Dolby's Pro Logic llx 7.1 processing into a realistic surround field.
The Sony 997 has been on sale many times for as little as $425 if you shop around and at 120W/Channel (too) a great deal!
With such nice speakers and HDTV I am amazed the salesperson sold you a 697, that's all! :D

[SNO N YET]

Only the Sony 997 receiver does a capable job of taking your 2-channel audio sources like VHS tapes, cable programs in PCM stereo and Dolby 2.0 and converts them using Dolby's Pro Logic llx 7.1 processing into a realistic surround field.
The Sony 997 has been on sale many times for as little as $425 if you shop around and at 120W/Channel (too) a great deal!
With such nice speakers and HDTV I am amazed the salesperson sold you a 697, that's all! :D

But if I only have the DVD player and Charter HD receiver hooked up to the receiver I will be just fine??? Or won't I?

I am understanding that the 997 takes the 2 channel sources and converts to 7.1, but the only connections for audio that we will be using are fiberoptic and digital coaxial from HD Receiver and DVD player respectively.

[gparris]

You do not understand, still:

Even if you have a DVD player or HD cable box with optical or coaxial connections to your receiver for surround decoding, some DVDs do not have 5.1 audio and the same goes for cable (or sat) programmes that are broadcast in PCM stereo or DD2.0:
The 997 takes the digital output of your DVD player's audio or cable HD/SD audio output when it is NOT 5.1 (happens quite frequently with cable) and makes it sound like 7.1 using Dolby's PLllx system.

Your 697 may have 7.1 outputs, but aside from from Neo:6 (used in 6.1 systems) or PLll (used in 5.1 systems), you don't have the most current 7.1 sound field processing, sorry. When your DVD or cable box outputs a digital audio signal and its not (more often with cable) 5.1, it will be exactly that with the back surrounds trying to mimic a back channel in mono.
IF that suits you, fine, but considering your fine selection of HDTV and speakers, I find it difficult to compromise keeping the 697 when for a little more money, the 997 gives you the most current 7.1 processing and more power per channel. :)

[Ralph Kramden]

I have a 55" Mitsubishi widescreen HDTV, in excellent condition I'm selling, if you want to save some money. It's listed in the Yard Sale section here.


JIM

[SNO N YET]

I have a 55" Mitsubishi widescreen HDTV, in excellent condition I'm selling, if you want to save some money. It's listed in the Yard Sale section here.


JIM

Thanks for the offer, but we already purchased the 62". We were thinking about a 52" but wanted a larger model.

[SNO N YET]

You do not understand, still:

Even if you have a DVD player or HD cable box with optical or coaxial connections to your receiver for surround decoding, some DVDs do not have 5.1 audio and the same goes for cable (or sat) programmes that are broadcast in PCM stereo or DD2.0:
The 997 takes the digital output of your DVD player's audio or cable HD/SD audio output when it is NOT 5.1 (happens quite frequently with cable) and makes it sound like 7.1 using Dolby's PLllx system.

Your 697 may have 7.1 outputs, but aside from from Neo:6 (used in 6.1 systems) or PLll (used in 5.1 systems), you don't have the most current 7.1 sound field processing, sorry. When your DVD or cable box outputs a digital audio signal and its not (more often with cable) 5.1, it will be exactly that with the back surrounds trying to mimic a back channel in mono.
IF that suits you, fine, but considering your fine selection of HDTV and speakers, I find it difficult to compromise keeping the 697 when for a little more money, the 997 gives you the most current 7.1 processing and more power per channel. :)

Well we are going to see how the 697 performs, once hooked up. I talked to the guys at Flanners and we can return it for the 997 or whatever model if we are not 100% satisfied, long as we don't wait for a month.

My dad is making all the final decisions so we'll see what happens. I am just his "tech kid" :wave: We have dropped alot of money in the basement so we'll see what happens. PICS TO FOLLOW SOON!!!

Thanks for the input! :bow:

[StarvingForHDTV]

What is all this fuss about 7.1? Have any DVDs or other products been made which support 7.1 distinct channels of audio? Frankly, all of that "upconversion" stuff sounds like marketing fluff to me. How does one realistically create 7.1 channels from 2?

[gparris]

What is all this fuss about 7.1? Have any DVDs or other products been made which support 7.1 distinct channels of audio? Frankly, all of that "upconversion" stuff sounds like marketing fluff to me. How does one realistically create 7.1 channels from 2?

Maybe until you actually EXPERIENCE :rolleyes: 2 channels being processed by Dolby Pro Logic llx will you be able to make comments...I have and continue to on my Denon and Sony...thankyou very much! ;)

[Mark Strube]

I just recently switched from a receiver with Pro Logic II to an older receiver which is the old Pro Logic (the PLII receiver died on me)... and it really hasn't made that big of a difference to me. It decodes Dolby Digital and DTS 5.1, and that's what you really want. Only once in awhile will you be watching a 2.0 program that the PLII converts to 5/6/7.1 and say wow, that sounds almost like real 5.1. I'd say it's the equivalent of having a DVD player that upconverts to 720p or 1080i... it makes a small difference, but nothing notable, and it wouldn't make or break a receiver purchase for me (although all the new ones have PLII these days).

Some DVD's are made for 6.1, which adds a center rear channel. (Dobly Digital EX or DTS ES) It helps the directional sound be a bit more specific & enveloping, but it doesn't make as big of a difference as having a center front channel, for example. And unless you are able to set the speakers up exactly the way they're recommended, you might hear mostly the center rear and it could collapse the whole soundfield effect. My room isn't ideal for a 6.1 system, and actually sounds MUCH better when using 5.1. Nothing (in home entertainment) uses any more channels than 6.1 yet (unless it's upconverted by the receiver), as far as I know.

[gparris]

Correction: Dolby PLll uses only the 5.1 and does only a 5.1 surround field for the five speakers and sub...nothing else. :rolleyes:
Neo: 6 does the back center channel for 6.1, creating an enveloping surround experience to the listener, as with action movies and so on, nothing else. :D
Dolby PLllx causes a separation with the two back channels, as if it was created that way in the studio. :rock:
Since you cannot experience as much in that room of yours to begin with. you still cannot grasp the quality of a good surround like the PLllx.
Many shows, like Sci-Fi channel has, several non-5.1 network shows, among others, do not broadcast in 5.1, so the Dolby surround features can be a real treat for the listener/owner. Give it a chance! :D

[Mark Strube]

Since you cannot experience as much in that room of yours to begin with. you still cannot grasp the quality of a good surround like the PLllx.
Many shows, like Sci-Fi channel has, several non-5.1 network shows, among others, do not broadcast in 5.1, so the Dolby surround features can be a real treat for the listener/owner. Give it a chance! :D

Eh? Is this toward me? I have a perfect setup for 5.1, where the rear channels are at the side, not the rear, facing the listener. However there's no way I could add a center rear without having it sound like it's collapsing to that, just because of the size & shape of my room.

This allowed me to experience PLII very well, I watched many a show with it, and a couple games on my GameCube take advantage of it. My personal opinion is that it doesn't make a huge difference... the old Pro Logic still sounds good.

[StarvingForHDTV]

Thanks for the explanations.

[SNO N YET]

Started new thread with pics...

http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/forums/showthread.php?p=24135#post24135