46/58 messed up or is it just my new Tivo?

[borghe]

so I get a mid-70's on my Tivo on 46, and I tried turning to 58-1 only to find that it says searching for signal in antenna.. so for kicks I flip up a channel to 58-2, and lo and behold, there is CBSHD...

so what's going on???? any other DirecTV subs have 58 located on 58-2? everything is shifted up a channel... 58-2, 58-3, 58-4. Also, I punched in 46 directly and get the same thing (channels all shifted up to 46-2, 46-3, 46-4).

not a big deal, EXCEPT that the guide info is on 58-1 and the channel is on 58-2.. pretty much makes it impossible to record anything on 58..... :(

any info Jim Hall?

[borghe]

ok, the plot thickens...

46-2 gives me WDJT-DT
58-2 gives me WDJT-DT
1-1 gives me WDJT-DT (had to do a channel scan on the tivo)

46-3 gives me WMLW
58-3 gives me WMLW
1-2 gives me WMLW

so I can get WDJT-DT and WMLY.. here is the problem though. The only guide data at all for WDJT-DT and WMLW is on 58-1 and 58-2. So if I actually try to use the Tivo to record by guide data instead of time slot programming, it will record 58-1 between 7-8, but it won't get anything. It will record 58-2 between 7-8, but will get WDJT-DT instead of WMLW.

Now I can only guess that for whatever reason, the PSIP data has shifted all the channels up, meaning now to 46-2, 46-3, 46-4, and that DirecTV as statically pointing to those channels with 58-1, 58-2, and 58-3. I am also assuming that 46-2 is remapping to 1-1, 46-3 to 1-1, etc.

So I think I've figured it out.. now comes the obvious question.. WHY IS IT DOING THIS!?!?!? My wife will absolutely kill me if after spending $1000 on this thing we can't record CBS HD on it (I told her we could).. all 58 has to do is move WDJT-DT back to 46-1 and everything will be fine.. HELP!!!!!!!

oh, if I'm wrong on any of this, let me know, but I really have to get this resolved ASAP. thanks.

[borghe]

alright.. I just tested this out on my other box and it is fine there.. so it "seems" like it is just the Tivo that is shifting everything up on channel 46 by one subchannel...

If anyone else can help me out here, clear all of your OTA channel data and rescan. I would GREATLY appreciate it. I need to know if anyone else is seeing anything other than on channels 46-1, 46-2, and 46-3 like you normally would. Thanks.

Hopefully this is just with Tivo.. if it is anything on 58's end as well I would hate to have to work with both companies to get this resolved.. arrghh..

[Wurster]

Long time lurker, first time poster. In fact, I was involved back when this was still a yahoo group, but a newborn at home had other ideas about what I should be doing with all my free time...

In any event, I just received my HR10-250 from Circuitcity.com on Tuesday and noticed the exact same issues with channels 46/58 that you are describing. Borghe, did you get any response from Jim Hall on the issue? The HD-TIVO replaced a Zenith high def set-top box and I didn't have these problems with the Zenith. It's obviously not a dealbreaker, but it is more than a little annoying when trying to record CBS HD.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

[borghe]

it isn't a WDJT thing, it is a Tivo thing.. others from other areas around the country are having problems with this also. WDJT comes in just fine on my E86 on 46-1 through 46-3. Just not the Tivo, where all the channels are shifted up one.

CALL INTO DIRECTV!! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!! Also if you want to help out in another way, make an account on www.tivocommunity.com if you haven't already and post to this thread (http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=174218).

This is an obvious problem with the Tivo, and despite what sprocto (from that thread) was told, it is not an individual hardware problem but a tuner problem that DirecTV should be able to fix with firmware.

So please, call DirecTV and tell them the exact problem (feel free to tell them that other customers from Milwaukee are having this same problem) and sign in on that thread on tivocommunity. The louder we shout about this, hopefully the quicker they will be to respond.

Also, you should be able to receive channel 10-2 just fine now.. The Tivo isn't mapping this station correctly for some reason, though now that their guide data is appearing correctly for it it won't be able to be duplicated.. So that is one less problem you will have to deal with. :)

edit - oh, the level 2 tech I spoke with said there is a software upgrade currently being rolled out to Tivos.. he told me to check and see if this upgrade fixes it...

edit2 - and grats on the Tivo.. glad someone else in the area bought one also.. starting to feel lonely. Aside from that minor hiccup with 58 currently, I am completely loving it. HDNet Movies is currently running about 4 or 5 old war movies that are currently unavilable on DVD.. needless to say, that is definitely some "save until I delete" material if I've ever heard of it...

[denno]

count me in--got my HR10-250 from CC on Thursday!

[borghe]

check channel 46.. everything should be shifted up one subchannel.. if it isn't, let us know.. if it is, let DirecTV know.. the more people who call in on this hopefully the faster it will be fixed.

[denno]

I'm not receiving any CBS OTA at all; I am going to have the installer come back to adjust the antenna since I have been able to pick it up only occasionally since they installed it a few wks ago.

[denno]

the installer is coming to check my antenna...to check Channel 58 reception should I tune my Tivo to 58-2??

[borghe]

you can check signal strength on channel 46 as normal (go to OTA signal strength and tune switch to 46). but to make sure you are getting a picture yes you would tune to either 58-2 or 46-2.

Funny enough if you scan first and then punch in 46-2 it will take you to 1-1 corrently... lol..

will call DirecTV later this week to find out what the status is. The good news is that people on the Tivo forums are starting to report that when they call this in, the engineers are saying that they have other reports of this as well and are looking into it.

Hopefully it will be fixed soon.

[denno]

i'm on the phone now with a clueless DTV tech...told him to go look at the tivocommunity thread. he said he hasn't heard anything about this.

update--he said it's being worked on & that other techs/engineers there had talked to people from tivocommunity about it.

phone number direct to tech is 800.695.9251; he said to call back periodically to check on status of fix but that it would be downloaded when available

[tazman]

Don't be supprised if by Friday or early next week you will have to re-scan your channels all over again. I've seen WDJT switch or I should shuffle the deck on their multicast about 4 or 5 times in the last month and a half on channel 46. One thing I have to say that is nice about the peicec of junk tuner card I have is that It forces me to switch to the XP desktop and use the tuner's software menu to select multicasts. That's how I know at least that when ever I tune 46 looking for 58, I see which multicast they put it on. Kinda like Romper Room and musical chairs.:D

[kjnorman]

So what was the resolution on these issues?

I would like to know that the HD Tivo fully works in the Milwaukee area before I try to seriously talk my wife into letting me get one for my birthday.

BTW, they appear to be widely available for purchase at circuit city on-line now.

Kerry

[Rick Sass]

I just spoke to a tech at DTV and he was aware of the problem and he gave me a fax number to report the issue. They will use this info from different users and then try to come up with a fix. In the fax be as specific as possible.

Here is the info:

Kirk Branam
Ext 4669
Supervisor/Senior Technician
406-727-0730
________________

[borghe]

well, I have some good news and some bad news. The bad news is that there doesn't seem to be a fix in sight from either WDJT or DirecTV/Tivo.

The good news is that I finally figured out a fix myself. Even more I can do this fix for anyone who needs it done for a small price.. say a six pack.. :drink:

basically to perform the fix I will need to hack your Tivo. I can either bring a USB Ethernet dongle to perform the hack with or you can purchase one ($30). To fix this problem I will need to hack your Tivo to get a telnet prompt and Tivoweb, and then change some entries in the MFS database on your Tivo. The good news is that this DOES work. I am tuning in 58-1 and 58-2 correctly now. The only side effect is that if WDJT/DirecTV/Tivo ever fix the problem, you will encounter the opposite of the original problem (your 58-1 will now be pointing at WMLW and your 58-2 will be pointing at nothing). Fortunately once everything is hacked, undoing the fix takes all of about 10 seconds and I can email you the script you would need to run to do it.

So again, if any HD Tivo owners out there want me to fix their Tivo so they can view and record 58-1 and 58-2 correctly, let me know. It's the least I can do for the members of this board.

Edit - and while I would be doing this hack, adding anouther 250GB or 300GB drive at the same time would be trivial.. no reason to sit around at 30 hours of HD as long as we got the box open anyway.

[borghe]

heh.. you know, I really have to pinch myself just to be sure I really am able to record from WDJT. It has been so long (almost five months) that not being able to use any season passes for CBS was just normal.

Note that if anyone from WDJT is reading this, the problem STILL needs to be fixed and each and every HD Tivo user out there who doesn't accept my help still won't be able to record using the standard Tivo interface from your stations. FIX THIS!

Anyway, that's the last you'll hear from me on this subject.

[borghe]

believe it or not, an update...

it has recently been discovered that the channel 58 subchannel shifting problem IS INDEED related to Weigel Broadcasting and their 1-1 mandate. Talking on the Tivo forum, every local DMA that is suffering from this problem is having it occur with a Weigel station.

So Jim Hall, if you are reading this, something your station is sending out in your PSIP data is causing all of your viewers with HD Tivos to not be able to properly record your channel.

I know this mandate comes from Weigel corporate, but first it screwed the Dish 810 people and now it is screwing the HD Tivo people. How many people does 1-1 have to screw before Weigel corporate actually changes it?

[Joeknapp]

I've finally found somebody at DirectTV who (might) escalate this problem to Hughes-Thompson, the manufacturer of the HD DVR sold under the DirectTV brand name. I bought mine from Flanners in Milwaukee. They told me they had 20 of them, and have sold 18 so far. That tells me there will soon be 17 more people having this problem! After looking through the thread at www.tivocommunity.com, it appears this problem isn't isolated to Milwaukee. There are reports from Chicago, Indianapolis, Phoenix, San Mateo, and several other cities, all reporting the same "channel shift" problem. In my case, 58-1 appears on 58-2, and 58-2 appears on 58-3, which does not match the program guide data. The program guide is correct, the channels are simply in the wrong place. If you run the Scan For New Local HD Stations function, the DVR will actually ADD new channels at 1-1 and 1-2, which are duplicates of 58-2 and 58-3. The problem is that DirectTV doesn't provide program guide data for channel one. I wish they did, because channel 58 actually does try to renumber their channel on HD receivers. On the Sony receiver I had before, 58's HD feeds showed up on 1-1 and 1-2. Why they do this is unknown, and if you ask me, stupid. They advertise their programming on channel 58. Why confuse viewers by moving to another channel? Anyway, the one thing I did get from my chat today with the tier two support guy at DirectTV is that AT LEAST FIVE PEOPLE HAVE TO COMPLAIN BEFORE THEY DO ANYTHING. So, if you're having this problem, call DirectTV, punch the buttons to reach tech support, immediately ask for tier two, then tell them you are having the "HD channel-shift problem" and ask them when they expect a software upgrade that will fix the problem. I plan to keep calling back every few days until they do something. If we all do this, they can't continue to ignore us!

[Joeknapp]

http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/forums/newreply.php?action=newreply&threadid=3445&#
http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/forums/newreply.php?action=newreply&threadid=3445&#
I hit a brick wall tonight. I've been calling DirecTV every day to "report the problem" with CBS 58's program guide data showing up on the wrong channel. As you know, the signal appears on 1-1 (correct place) and 58-2 (incorrect place), but the program guide info is on 58-1. This means you can't use the guide to set up a Seasons Pass for CBS HD programming. Well, tonight I got a tier two tech who told me the problem would never be fixed. I called back and finally (after 90 minutes) got to a tier two supervisor. Once again, this ended with a promise to "escalate" the problem to someone who could fix it. Once again, I doubt this will happen.

So, here's what I'm prepared to do. It's too late to return my DirecTV HD DVR to Flanners for a refund. I am ready, willing and able to finance a class-action lawsuit against DirecTV, Hughes-Thompson, channel 58, Flanners, and any other company that I can identify as being involved here. Members of the class will be demanding a refund for the DirecTV HD DVR, along with a refund of all fees paid to DirecTV during the time they owned the DVR, plus damages and legal fees. This could result in $$$ coming back to you if you own one of these boxes and you'd like to be included in this action. If you fall into this category, please contact me. My e-mail address is <joe@mmwin.com>. If I am able to get the lawsuit started, I'll post updates regularly on this forum. I'm also going to try to get information about this to the news media in an effort to pressure these guys into some kind of settlement.

Can you tell that I'm upset about this, or what?

[denno]

is it possible to use this problem as leverage to get the waiver for the CBS national feed?

[borghe]

I am sorry to hear you guys are frustrated with this.. I understand completely. I dealt with it for 4 months before finally taking matters into my own hands..

As for the solution, there isn't one aside from hacking your boxes. Hopefully when CBS58 is forced to comply with their PIDS that will fix the problem for you... In the meantime you either have to live with it or mod your boxes. Sorry. :( Really, I am.

I can say modding a HR10-250 takes about only 15-30 minutes if you are at all familiar with Linux/DOS or any command line OS really. My instructions for doing the subchannel fix are posted in here I believe and for 58 I can even go so far as giving you text to copy and paste into a telnet session.

My Tivo crashed recently (ribbon cable went bad) and for me to restore from backup and remod the thing took about 20 minutes, and that is including disassembly AND restoring from backup...

anyway, I don't know what else to say other than I sympathize with your situation.. although I didn't have it nearly as bad as you guys because I fixed mine right at the start of the fall season.

[Joeknapp]

I give up, and I'm ready to hack my HD TiVo so I can get it to record shows on CBS 58. How do I do this, exactly? Is someone willing to come out to my house and do this for me?

I don't know who's at fault in all this, really. Channel 58 is sure it's a DirecTV problem. DirecTV either ignores the problem, or tries to blame it on Channel 58, and sometimes even on ME!

If you are thinking about getting DirecTV and/or a DirecTV HD TiVo -- I have one word of advice for you: DON'T.

DirecTV has the WORST customer service in the world. If you get an "answer" from their techs, you can hang up, call right back, and get a different answer from another tech. They have absolutely NO problem telling you lies, too. I hate that more than anything else.

The Time-Warner HD DVR box is no match for TiVo in ease of use, and it does strange things that you cannot control. It can delete programs without warning, and you can create two or more "Seasons Passes" for the exact same show. Their tech support isn't great either, but it's FAR better than DirecTV. Even the voice menus you get when you call are less complicated (and I hate those things with a passion).

Why is it that when you call DirecTV for support you are asked to type in your 10 digit phone number before you can speak to a human -- but, once you get a human on the phone, they always start by asking you for your phone number??

I hope DirecTV goes dark. They truly suck.

[borghe]

ok, let me go into this a little more.

first, you have to understand the crux of the DirecTV/TiVo relationship. DirecTV provides tech support of the Tivo, but they don't do any of the actual fixing, TiVo does this. So DirecTV tech support can only go so far before they have to hand the problem off to TiVo. However, TiVo can't release any code without DirecTV's approval (things used to be a lot different before DirecTV was as heavily involved as they are now, with code being pushed out 2-5 times within 2 months).

I realize it doesn't make any of those having problems feel any better, but you have to understand the complication of the situation.

As another example, I still see people complaining about various annoyances and glitches on the SA8000HD, yet TWC is basically powerless to do anything about it. They have to wait for SA to release software updates for the box.

Now onto CBS58, I am a little frustrated that it seems nothing I said was heard. CBS58 is in DIRECT NON-COMPLIANCE with North American ATSC standards. Rag on DirecTV or TiVo all you want but at the end of the day CBS58's stuff is broke and they refuse (from corporate mandate) to fix it. Of course the FCC isn't giving them an option and by May (I believe) they are required to have it fixed and comply.

So, could DirecTV have come up with a workaround in the meantime to appease those of us in Weigel areas to get our channels correctly? Maybe. But could that have caused problems with other aspects of the unit? Possibly. We don't know. What we DO KNOW is that if CBS58 wasn't on 1-1 and was sending out COMPLIANT AND CORRECT PSIP data, that we wouldn't have this problem.

So in response to your recommendation, I have this to say. DirecTV as a service and the Tivo unit as a product are both wonderful. It is a shame that CBS58 and Weigel Broadcasting feels that they do not have to comply with ATSC standards and thus break certain boxes (the Tivo isn't the only box that has had issues with weigel's PSIP). However I feel it is clear where that responsibility lay. While one can claim the fact that most other boxes work with 58-1 correctly, you could make the same claim that EVERY box (not just most) work with EVERY OTHER channel correctly.

Anyway, if you can wait it out, when weigel is forced to comply, this will all be water under the bridge. I unfortunately do not mod other people's TiVos anymore but you can check www.dealdatabase.com/forum for information on how to mod it yourself or possibly find other people who are willing to do it for you, or you can got to www.ptvupgrade.com and buy drive kits that are already modded. If any of you decide to mod your unit I can copy and paste my post from tivocommunity.com on how to fix 58-1 and 58-2. Once the unit is modded fixing the two channels takes about 10 seconds, and that is including logging into the unit.

And for the record I have emailed CBS58 on the problem numerous times, including at least one time after I fixed my unit. I only ever received one response on the subject and that was "We will look into it." I even at the time had a name of an engineer at TiVo who was willing to work with CBS58 on fixing the problem but have since lost the name... Though if any of you have contacts in Tivo, TiVo is aware of what the problem is and can work with the station to fix it. It is PSIP related and IIRC basically occurs when the station is PSIP mapping the actual channel to a different channel than what DirecTV is mapping to (i.e. DirecTV is mapping channel 46 to 58 while 58 is mapping 46 to 1)

[mhz40]

WDJT plans on remapping PSIP & programs on 1/31. You waited this long, I would hold off until Feb to see what happens. Your mapping issues may disappear.

[borghe]

thank you mhz40 for this information. and I agree completely on holding off (unless you wanted the other benefits from modding your tivo).

you TWC guys aren't half bad sometimes :D

j/k

[Joeknapp]

Thanks for the info, everyone. I've waited this long, I guess a couple more weeks won't hurt. If 58 is going to fix their compliance problem, maybe that will fix the problem. Last time I spoke with their Chief Engineer, however, he claimed there was absolutely nothing wrong with their equipment, settings, whatever. I wonder if he's changed his mind about that now? Anyway, next step might be to contact the FCC to have them check into channel 58 to see if they're in compliance. I'll call them on February 2nd -- if I still can't record JAG by then.

[borghe]

Well, good news and bad news. Goood news is 58 finally stopped using 1-1 and 1-2 and are now 58-1 and 58-2. The bad news is that as far as I can tell the issue with the Tivo still exists. I am not however confident that CBS58 actually fixed the issue at hand. See, when you check the signal strength on 46, it still lists channel 58-2 as the primary channel. Channel 8 however lists 10-1 as the first channel. Also it has been confirmed that their PID data is still not compliant (per the thread in Technical).

[Joeknapp]

It's working! Channel 58-1 is now CBS 58 on my TiVo, and 58-2 is also correct. Now I wish I knew for sure who really fixed this problem -- because I'm still not sure. I wish people would take responsibility for their failures, but that seems to be out of style these days. DirecTV insisted it was channel 58's fault, and channel 58 insisted it was DirecTV's fault. I haven't tried calling them yet to see if they'll admit what really happened. But, I'm willing to just assume that it was channel 58's fault all along. They did make some kind of change on January 31st, and when they did the problem was solved. I suppose that all I care about is that I can now record JAG, Listen Up, Raymond, and all the CSI flavors in beautiful HDTV (and I can finally return my TW HD DVR to the cable company).

[borghe]

there has not been a software update to Tivo.....

if that tells you anything.

though it was just fixed today. because this morning my Tivo was working (I have checked every day since the 30th) and calling home now it isn't (have to set it back).

Grats to 58 for finally fixing it. Enjoy HD Tivo owners.. our boxes are now 100% perfect!!

[kjnorman]

Grats to 58 for finally fixing it. Enjoy HD Tivo owners.. our boxes are now 100% perfect!!

Until Directv go to Mpeg4 compression. I am really wanting to get the HD Tivo, now that CBS has fixed their channel mapping, but I think it will be hard to justify $600-700 to my wife if the box will not record the NH Nationals when they are MP4. I know it should still do the locals but its going to be a hard sell and my brain keeps on telling me that I have waited this long, what is 10(?) more months to wait for the Directv HMC....

[borghe]

a couple of things to keep in mind:

1) DirecTV has NOT announced a new HD DVR. They have only announced a new SD DVR.
2) At this time, ONLY HD locals will be in MPEG4. HD Nationals aren't expected to be in MPEG4 until 2007.
3) Assuming that for the time being only locals will be in MPEG4, the HD Tivo will still be able to record ALL satellite SD AND HD as well as OTA HD, it will not be obsolete for some time.

So if you are truly waiting for an MPEG4 DVR from DirecTV, you will probably be waiting a heck of a lot longer than 10 months. That DVR will also probably NOT have OTA capabilities as the entire point of releasing an MPEG4 DVR would be to record LIL locals. When HD locals launch later this year DirecTV customers WILL NOT have a way of recording them. They will be for viewing only. and when the HD DVR does come out from NDS, without OTA capabilities you will again be forced into getting locals from DirecTV for $2-4/month.

If you want to DVR HD on DirecTV, the HD DirecTivo is and will be your only option for quite some time to come. If that doesn't speak to its non-obsolesence I don't know what does.

[kjnorman]

I made reference to the HMC - the Home Media Center. This is slated to have 4 Directv tuners (HD capable) and 2 ATSC tuners, be MPG4 capable and be available towards the end of the year. Indead this would be available prior to "just" a HD DVR.

Yes the HD tivo will still be able to record HD locals, SD directv and existing HD nationals until they convert around 2006/7, however it was my understanding that any NEW HD nationals will only be in MPEG 4.

What do we record now that would be available in HD? Mostly locals and HBO. Both of which are available using the HD Tivo for the forseeable future. It would just be a shame to lose the chance to get future national channels.

Of course I spent $600 on my original Sony SVR2000 back in 2000, but that was BEFORE I was married.... :D

[sp44again]

Why do you need more national HD channels?

[borghe]

well paint me embarrased... I completely missed out on that announcement from DirecTV??? WTF!?!?

Umm... well, I would still be skeptical of later this year, and still think the Tivo is and will be a great investment for some time yet.. but yeah.. avoiding $500-600 and waiting for that wouldn't be bad also..

I at this point probably won't be buying another Tivo... HOWEVER, I will still probably keep my Tivo even after I buy that (of course I am going to, you guys should know that :P )

The Tivo's usefullness can't be expressed enough... just having all of this season of smallville, the packer games, and Lost archived to DVR is worth every penny (until the HD-DVD sets come out).

anyway, sorry about not seeing that release.. I don't know how I missed that.. it looks pretty cool.. though I don't look forward to facing the Time Warner/SH8000HD syndrome.. I love my Tivo because of everything I Can do with it. Giving all of that up for a box that can simply record (and redistribute) kind of stinks... It's like giving up the Audi A8 for a Passat. You are still getting a great car, but it ain't an A8... :(