Fox 6 480i or 480p

[summerfun]

I always thought Fox 6 was 480p, but I looked today and I was receiving a 480i signal.

Do they change depending on what they are broadcasting? Are they always 480i. All the other channels seem to be sending a consistent HD signal 24/7 even for SD programming.

Anybody know?

[GBK]

I believe that 480p is only available during their Fox Widescreen presentations. Otherwise I think it's always 480i. well maybe 240i.. given their other technical achievments in the area.:rofl:

[foxeng]

The transmission is 480p 24/7 with local and network non film content converted from 480i to 480p and network film 480i with 3/2 pull down to bring it as close to true 480p as possible.

[summerfun]

If what you say is true, why am I getting a 480i signal from TWC to my home?

I have only checked the signal during 4:3 programming. I will check the next time they send a widescreen program and see if it is any different.

[GBK]

well If we were lucky to actually receive a fox signal out here 6 miles from their station... I could tell you if you are getting screwed by twc. I wouldn't be surprised.. but given the fact that witi isn't broadcasting a signal strong enough they probably aren't broadcasting 480p.. Now mind you I'm guessing since we hardly ever get any news from them.. I know it would be such a chore to at least let the public know what's going on. :bang:

Sorry foxeng.. I haven't forgotten you. I just don't put you in the same category as the "engineers" at WITI. we appreciate all the news we get from at least a few people at Fox.

[mhz40]

The only format conversion that is done is within the set top. For SA, everything is converted to 1080i. Pioneer has options as to what formats will be passed-thru natively and which ones will be converted to another format (720 or 1080, I don't know which). On the transmission side, TW does not reformat any digital format... SD or HD; so the format your set top gets is what is being sent by the source.
Where is 480i being reported, on your TV?

MHz40

[foxeng]

Originally posted by GBK
Sorry foxeng.. I haven't forgotten you. I just don't put you in the same category as the "engineers" at WITI. we appreciate all the news we get from at least a few people at Fox.

That is OK.

WITI has the same equipment I have and the encoder doesn't even do 480i, only 480p, 720p or 1080i. Everything has to be converted to 480p for transmission.

[StarvingForHDTV]

Will you be able to use your same equipment when Fox switches to 720p or are you going to need something new?

Thanks in advance,

Starving

Originally posted by foxeng
WITI has the same equipment I have and the encoder doesn't even do 480i, only 480p, 720p or 1080i. Everything has to be converted to 480p for transmission.

[Gregg Lengling]

If you read the post over in the News forum you'll see all the info about the new Terayon System they will be deploying to all the affiliates. Fox will be the first system that doesn't have to strip to baseband and re-encode.

Read the entire story here:

http://digitaltelevision.com/articles/article_548.shtml

[summerfun]

Originally posted by mhz40
the format your set top gets is what is being sent by the source.
Where is 480i being reported, on your TV?

MHz40

The pioneer 3510 will pass through 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i. My TV will except all formats and the service menu will show what it is receiving. All my SD channels show up as 480i, ABC shows up as 720p and the other HD channels show up as 1080i, but channel 506 (FOX HD on TWC) shows up as 480i.

I can set my STB to upconvert everyting to 1080i or let it pass through native, but my question was, "why is Fox 6 coming accross as 480i?)

[foxeng]

Originally posted by StarvingForHDTV
Will you be able to use your same equipment when Fox switches to 720p or are you going to need something new?

Thanks in advance,

Starving

The network is providing, at their cost, the HD equipment to all the 190 some FOX stations nationwide. This will be an addition to what WITI has. All WITI will have to do is change their local encoder from 480p to 720p and the network equipment is added after that.

[foxeng]

Let me ask a TOTALLY hypothetical question.

If you had a choice of getting FOX HD quicker by leaving WITI DT at its present location or moving to the tower and not having FOX HD, which would you want?

I am asking this on my own. I HAVE NOT talked to ANYONE at WITI about this so please DO NOT READ ANYTHING into this. It is just a guy 900 miles away asking a stupid question and hoping you will answer it.

[Gregg Lengling]

AND HE ANSWERED "TONGUE IN CHEEK!".

I think that Directv will carry FOX network before WITI gets a real signal....thank God they are FOX O&O because that means I'll get FOX off the dish.......

[foxeng]

Originally posted by Gregg Lengling
AND HE ANSWERED "TONGUE IN CHEEK!".

I think that Directv will carry FOX network before WITI gets a real signal....thank God they are FOX O&O because that means I'll get FOX off the dish.......

OOOHH, Tough room! :guns:

[GBK]

Having HD at their current location is pointless. Nobody outside their parking lot can get a signal. So first I would like to get the ability to view programming *any* programming even if I had to wait for HD until fall. But given the potential to get Fox off the dish soon... WITI better shape up or no one in the area will watch that station. Why? Given their up to now lack of service why would anyone want to be their beta tester for the next 3 years and put up with all the issues that will most likely arise when they go live with HD.

[Scott Sippel]

Given the choice I would probably choose getting Fox HD quicker. Although it would not benefit me at least it would benefit the Time Warner subscribers.

As far as the O&O eligibility, I fear that I'll be too far west to be eligible. Although I am only 30 miles from WITI's tower the DirecTV eligibility page shows Fox 47 out of Madison as a Grade A for my zip code in Dousman. :( The Madison towers are 50 miles away.

Even Hartland at 20 mi away from WITI (57 mi from Madison) shows Fox 47 as Grade A. If you enter in a Pewaukee zip code, which is 4 miles east of Hartland, Fox 47 is no longer listed.

It will be interesting where the line will be drawn for eligibility. All of the locations above are in the Milwaukee DMA but I have a bad feeling about that Grade A signal from Madison for us western viewers.

[summerfun]

I'm glad we got the tower figured out, but any thoughts on my original question?

Why is Fox 6 showing up through TWC as 480i?

[Bebop]

Originally posted by summerfun
I'm glad we got the tower figured out, but any thoughts on my original question?

Why is Fox 6 showing up through TWC as 480i?

TWC would have the answer.

[StarvingForHDTV]

Thank you. I'm glad it is being handled that way.

As to your question, I think WITI-DT should focus on getting their signal more coverage area first. I hope they will have that AND FoxHD by the time the NFL season starts. If they did those two things, I feel most members here would LOVE their station from that point forward. The network has already made the right decision to go HD, now it's time for WITI-DT to make it happen for Milwaukee area residents.

Starving

Originally posted by foxeng
The network is providing, at their cost, the HD equipment to all the 190 some FOX stations nationwide. This will be an addition to what WITI has. All WITI will have to do is change their local encoder from 480p to 720p and the network equipment is added after that.

[borghe]

I too am casting a tower first vote. To be honest, HD first does nothing for me as I can't receive the stationanyway without much work, and unfortunately I am nowhere near as altrusitic as Scott in that carriage on TWC couldn't mean less to me.. Until they can provide cheaper programming costs and equipment fees than DirecTV and a DVR equal to Tivo, they could carry 24 hour free porn and it wouldn't get me to subscribe.. That taken into account, speaking solely for me, I would rather see a 480p signal now and HD later than nothing from them now and HD later.

[Joel S]

Originally posted by summerfun
I'm glad we got the tower figured out, but any thoughts on my original question?

Why is Fox 6 showing up through TWC as 480i?

I checked during a Fox (ch 506) WS production the other night for a second (I think it was "The OC" so I definately only checked for a second) and my TV was saying it was 480i as well.

I'm honestly not sure if it has ever previously said 480p though on ch 506 for me.

[summerfun]

Originally posted by Joel S
I checked during a Fox (ch 506) WS production the other night for a second (I think it was "The OC" so I definately only checked for a second) and my TV was saying it was 480i as well.

I'm honestly not sure if it has ever previously said 480p though on ch 506 for me.

Thanks for your post. I was starting to think something was wrong at my house.

Does anyone other than a TWC customer have this issue?

[summerfun]

I just called TWC. After talking to about 10 people that had absolutely no idea what I was talking about they got me in touch with someone that was going to look into the situation. He will call me back next week after he talks to some senior engineers.

Does anyone on this board know anything about this? Why is fox 6 in 480i on TWC?

[mhz40]

Originally posted by summerfun
I just called TWC. After talking to about 10 people that had absolutely no idea what I was talking about they got me in touch with someone that was going to look into the situation. He will call me back next week after he talks to some senior engineers.

Does anyone on this board know anything about this? Why is fox 6 in 480i on TWC?

That 'someone' may likely be me, so I'll address your question here...
Because I don't think the mux we use is capable of scan conversion, the only answer I can think of is that the set top is doing this just before it hits your TV... those are the only two things between Faux's feed and your eyeballs (or scan detector in your TV).
If you really need an answer, I'll follow-up with a call to Pioneer next week. If it is occuring in the set top, I doubt any changes will be made in short order, since it will most likely require a code change in the set top firmware.
As a work-around, you could try selecting only the 720 or 1080 option in the user settings/more settings menu. This should convert all scan modes to the one format you desire.

MHz40
As a side note, my Sammy does not accept 480i on my component input... and I can watch Faux all day off the Pioneer box. I have both 720 & 1080 selected in the user menu I mentioned earlier, so doing this must convert the 480 to 720 or 1080. If no formats are selected, I think native scan rates pass through.

[summerfun]

Thanks mhz40 so much for your answer. This is not a problem becasue I can use the 3510 to upconvert to 1080i when I use the component cables.

It was more a point of confusion. WHY was I not getting the Fox 480p signal? It just seems odd that the 3510 has a 480p output setting, but it does not send a 480p signal.

If you use the DVI port, it does not allow an output choice and will always send the native signal. Since I don't have a DVI cable, I don't know what I would get for Fox if I used a DVI cable. It would be interesting to test.

[gb4fan92]

my TV was saying it was 480i as well.

How/where is this information shown on your tv? I am looking to see if I can do this but no luck.

[StarvingForHDTV]

Maybe WITI-DT is set to output 480i instead of 480p Would that explain their strange flickering type problems? I hope they get it right when 720p comes along....

Starving

[mhz40]

Originally posted by foxeng
Let me ask a TOTALLY hypothetical question.

If you had a choice of getting FOX HD quicker by leaving WITI DT at its present location or moving to the tower and not having FOX HD, which would you want?
Knowing that the new encoders are being provided by the network, 6 should work hard to have thier antenna work done simultanously with the install of the new gear & conversion to 720. That brings the best of both worlds to as many new eyeballs as possible... which will bring in the best return on their investment. I believe it's been nearly a year now since initial tower work timelines were floated. Now is simply time, WITI. Make it happen.
MHz40

[Matt Heebner]

Yea...right. We've been saying that for how many years now....:rolleyes:

I am holding out for FAUX on Directv. I am willing to bet I'll see it first there than OTA.

Matt

[foxeng]

Originally posted by StarvingForHDTV
Maybe WITI-DT is set to output 480i instead of 480p Would that explain their strange flickering type problems? I hope they get it right when 720p comes along....

Starving

The Harmonic MV-400 encoder that WITI has doesn't do 480i, only 480p, 720p and 1080i. The 480i signal HAS to be converted to something else besides 480i for the enocder to work.

That is it.

[The Law]

Your TV may be selecting what it *thinks* is best. I'm using the 3510HD and, yes, fox (and every thing else not HD) shows 480i. However, If I remove all output formats and leave on 480p, well, it comes in on 480p. My mits prolly upconverts to whatever it thinks is best when it negotiates the signal.

My output settings on the 3510:
480p
480i
1080i

My TV negotiates the following
All HD Channels: 1080i
Fox "HD": 480i
All other channels: 480i

Note, If I select 720p as an output option, I cannot view 512 (ABC HD) it won't negotiate properly - hence the ommission on my output.

[summerfun]

If I set my 3510 to output everything, this is what I get.

3510 settings all on:

480i - yes
480p - yes
720p - yes
1080i - yes

The TV will receive

All SD channels 480i
FOX HD channel 480i
ABC HD channel 720p
All other HD channels 1080i

If 3510 setting like this:

480i - no
480p - yes or no (doesn’t matter)
720p - yes
1080i - yes

The TV will receive

All SD channels 1080i
Fox HD channel 1080i
ABC HD channel 720p
All other HD channels 1080i

The only way to get 480p is to turn off all other options. There would be no reason to do that. I have been leaving the 3510 on 1080i output only and everything goes to the TV at 1080i.

The whole point of my first post was to find out why I am receiving a 480i signal from FOX 6. They say they are sending a 480p to TWC and TWC says that they don't have the equipment to change the scan rate, so it must be the 3510 changing the rate. For what reason, I would not know. Maybe it is simply a bug in the firmware.

[summerfun]

Originally posted by gb4fan92
How/where is this information shown on your tv? I am looking to see if I can do this but no luck.

It depends on your TV. My Hitachi just shows it when you click on the info button. My Sony requires going into the service menu.

[StarvingForHDTV]

Yeah, I thought of that after I posted. OTA the signal comes in as 480p. The problem sounds like it's either with Time Warner Cable, or their customer's equipment. I watch the signal OTA and convert it to 1080i for display. I hope Fox-HD looks as good as ABC-HD.

Do you know if Fox has plans to do any of 2004/2005 NFL games in HD?

Starving

Originally posted by foxeng
The Harmonic MV-400 encoder that WITI has doesn't do 480i, only 480p, 720p and 1080i. The 480i signal HAS to be converted to something else besides 480i for the enocder to work.

That is it.

[borghe]

yeah. the signal comes OTA at 480p over my bud's Sony box also.. it is sounding like a problem with the combo of TWC's box/settings and your tv/settings... unfortunately not familiar enough with either to offer anything... but if mhz40 is right about TWC not doing anything to the signal, you should be able to get it at 480p.

[summerfun]

Thanks everyone for all the help.

The conclusion is that Fox is broadcasting in 480p. Confirmed by Foxeng.

Fox is sending a 480p signal OTA. Confirmed by those with OTA receivers.

TWC is sending the 480p through the cable. Confirmed by mhz40 that TWC does not have the capability to convert the signal.

The box is set correctly and the TV has the ability to receive 480p. Confirmed by me.

So it must be a firmware bug in the Pioneer 3510 box that it does not send the 480p to the TV.

Still waiting on the HD/DVR box and this will hopefully become a non issue. The pioneer box will be retired.

[foxeng]

Originally posted by StarvingForHDTV
Do you know if Fox has plans to do any of 2004/2005 NFL games in HD?

It hasn't been announced yet (heck NOTHING has been announced) but from what I am hearing, the Super Bowl will be HD. The playoffs have a very high probablity of HD. As for the regular season, nothing has been said. There has been a rumor floating around the last couple of weeks that some big HD sports annoucement is due at any time, but I can't confirm or deny it by anyone so I don't know. A WAG would be that at least one would be and maybe two along the same lines as the widescreen games, but again, that is just me guessing and based on the last two years so if your Packers play well, there is a chance you will see them in HD.

[summerfun]

If they do not do the Super Bowl in HD after the whole world saw it this year in HD, I would almost think the NFL would have an argument to cancel the Fox agreement for negligence and give the game to someone else.

As fast as HD is growing, can you even guess how many people will have HDTV by next season. The numbers are growing exponentially.

Right now we are a small minority, just wait until more Packer fans have HD and they can’t see their games in HD. I would get out of the way of that storm.

[foxeng]

Originally posted by summerfun
As fast as HD is growing, can you even guess how many people will have HDTV by next season. The numbers are growing exponentially.

I can't speak for Milwaukee, but in my market (640,000 homes with other 1 million viewers) we estimated about 5000 "HD" homes (homes that could actually display 720p or 1080i either OTA or cable or sat) last year and now it is estimated around 10,000. That kind of growth can't be sustanted. At the low numbers, it is easy to double or even triple, but as the numbers get larger, it takes larger numbers to make those impressive percentages and I don't see it happening. In my market that means about 1 in 64 homes today, but that is under 2% and to jump to 4% will take a jump of another 10,000 this year and that will not happen. We might get another 5-7000 by years end. We only have 2 cablecos (out of 7) who offer HD and D* and E* and OTA, so the market isn't quite there yet for an "explosion" of set buying here. Having the Carolina Panthers in the playoffs and Super Bowl helped set sales here, but not stellar as can be seen with only a 5000 set increase year to year.

[StarvingForHDTV]

Thanks for the information. I will keep my fingers crossed. I'll also have to cross them that the Packers will be able to play good enough to make the cut.... If there are one or two games a week in HD. I would think the Playoffs will be HD for sure. For the Super Bowl, I would think definitely it will be HD. Even if Fox didn't own the production equipment, maybe they could lease the equipment to do those big events in HD. I'm not sure how all of that works. Thank you for your time.

Starving

Originally posted by foxeng
It hasn't been announced yet (heck NOTHING has been announced) but from what I am hearing, the Super Bowl will be HD. The playoffs have a very high probablity of HD. As for the regular season, nothing has been said. There has been a rumor floating around the last couple of weeks that some big HD sports annoucement is due at any time, but I can't confirm or deny it by anyone so I don't know. A WAG would be that at least one would be and maybe two along the same lines as the widescreen games, but again, that is just me guessing and based on the last two years so if your Packers play well, there is a chance you will see them in HD.

[summerfun]

We are very luck here in Milwaukee. I can't tell you the numbers, but we are very much ahead of the curve from many other markets.

I know in my business travels, I hear of cities that the cable company does not have any HD service and many of the local stations have not converted to HD and so on. I do believe this is the turning year. The stores are stocked with HD sets and the cost has come down enough that the regular person can afford an HDTV.

[GBK]

maybe the growth isn't there because the HD isn't there. If I go by the previous post. We have a some stations and cable offering HD so our numbers maybe higher then anywhere else. Where there maybe one or so. Also.. it's a lot easier to watch tv when it's 20 below zero.. then when it's sunny and 85 :)

[borghe]

hmm.. I don't know if I agree with you foxeng.. while it certainly won't sustain that kind of growth for an extended period of time, I honestly think HD viewing is going to grow even faster over the next couple of years.. with intel coming into the market later this year with $2000 LCOS sets, CRT RPTV sets for close to $1000, CRT direct view sets for under $1000, it will only catch on more and more.. and with hd tuners being pretty much a non-issue with cable and satellite (OTA on all boxes) offerings being dominant by far... I guess I just see the CEA's HDTV sales for the last few years and do in fact see exponential growth... and I do predict that it will happen like that over at least the next 2, maybe three years..

[summerfun]

If you look at HD sales as a bell curve, which most products follow pretty closely, we are at the very very front of that curve. We have a lot of exponential growth ahead of us before it levels out and then heads back down after the market is saturated.

[foxeng]

Originally posted by borghe
hmm.. I don't know if I agree with you foxeng.. while it certainly won't sustain that kind of growth for an extended period of time, I honestly think HD viewing is going to grow even faster over the next couple of years..

As I stated, I couldn't speak for Milwaukee and for your area, that may be a very true statement, but in my market, people are still loosing jobs every week. We have been hurt badly here and it is telling in lots of ways, including HD set sales.

Just last week, KKR can bought out Sealy Mattress. KKR is famous for busting up RJR/Nabisco and RJR is now on the verge of bankruptcy. Sealy will follow suite. Burlington Industries was based here in Greensboro, it is going under and has been merged with Cone Mills, the worlds largest denim manufacturer, who itself is going under. Last December Pillowtex, the company that supplied most of K Mart's non Martha Stewart and WalMart's linens went under. 7000 jobs lost in this area alone due to Pillowtex.

HD TV sets are not really big on the want lists around here these days.

We may be in a recovery, but you can't it tell here.

[borghe]

no, I wasn't speaking of Milwaukee in particular, just HD set sales reported on a national basis by the CEA.

That really sucks about the job market where you are. Sorry to hear that.

So I guess I should say, NATIONALLY I see us at the beginning of the bell curve (thanks summerfun). and it will grow quickly.. regionally I can't say per region.. heck, I can't even tell you how Milwaukee is doing aside from the increase in members on this board from when I first signed up in March 2002. And the fact that my sister-in-law, casual among all casual viewers, picked up an HDTV and HD box from TWC.

Hope things turn around for you guys down there.... :)

[summerfun]

Sorry to hear about the bad economy in your area. It must be tough to see your friends and neighbors in trouble.

Things around here a hopping. You can't seem to get a parking spot at the mall. I had to leave Best Buys the other day after driving around the lot three times and no spot opened up. We waited over an hour for a dinner table last week.

My wife works in retail and she comes home every night and says that the store has been a mad house. People everywhere. It seems people are spending money, but if you listen to the news, you would think we were in a recession. I don't know how it all adds up.