Confusion on Monday Night Football

[gobble]

I've read that ABC does an upconvert of the MNF broadcast to 1080i in a 4x3 format. It is my understanding that my HD receiver also upconverts to 1080i if I choose this mode. My question is, what is the difference? If I tune in ABC on the Directv receiver and output 1080i to the TV, do I get the same thing as the local upconverted digital feed?

[Pat]

When the upconverted signal arrives at your box, the box thinks its 1080i, 16:9, rather than what it started out at, 480i, 4:3. So the black in the bars is actually being broadcast.

[Tom Snyder]

Actually ABC's Hi Def is only 720 (allegedly to minimize motion artifacts for sporting events).

As I understand it (and I ain't no engineer), if your box/set aren't capable of displaying native 720 HD, it will convert to 1080i. The result is an upconvert or a down convert depending one what side of the argument you're on. There was some discussion on the matter at AVS, with some folks feeling that the conversion causing motion artifacts that wouldn't normally be there.

But that may only be for source orignally shot in 720. MNF is shot in 480 and converted to 720 at ABC.

I guess we'll see tonight! My DTC-100 doens't show 720, so I'll see an upconvert.

[This message has been edited by Tom Snyder (edited 11-04-2002).]

[Pat]

Good point, Tom. I forgot MNF = ABC = 720p. So the process is 480i to 720p by ABC, then 720p to 1080i at our STBs (for most folks).

[Load of cr*p dumped.]

Whole lotta shakin' goin' on.

[This message has been edited by Pat (edited 11-05-2002).]

[Matt Heebner]

I consider going from 720p to 1080i an upconvert. I've heard the arguments but 720p is still 720 lines versus 1080i which is still 1080 lines. Progressive scanning is probably better for fast moving sports, but I think I would rather have the increased resolution.

Matt

[Joseph S]

Interlaced just doesn't seem to get the job done on HD sports. Nearly every fast movement or quick graphic results in pixelation. On the other hand CSI/Leno vs. Alias/Practice is a night and day difference in quality on my set.

[P a u l]

Pat,
I will look into this some more on how exaclty the signal is converted. Right now I don't know what happens in our magic black box encoder. But here is a crazy scenario I just thought of based on your double and triple line theory. Lets say its first and ten for the Packers on the 50 yard line. The ball is hiked and the receivers take off down the field with A. Green running up the middle splitting the linebackers. Everyone is covered except for Mr. Green who is sprinting for the end zone. Favre sees him and hurls the ball. TOUCHDOWN!!!!!!!!!!! http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/ubb/cool.gif Now as Mr. Favre threw, or hurled, the ball as it went up and then down through its perfect spiral arc, with the lines being doubled or tripled do you think the ball would get bigger then smaller as it passed through these areas? Just a theory but I liked the scenario better. lol

[Pat]

Yes, I think there would be visible distortion, if I were correct. However, on further reflection, what I said above was cr*p. I forgot to consider the effects of converting from interlaced to progressive, and vice versa. (In my own defense, I guess what I said would apply to converting from 480p to 720p to 1080p, or i to i to i.)

I'll just leave these issues to the programmers. They obviously don't need my help -- they've never called, either at work or at home. http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/ubb/smile.gif

[StarvingForHDTV]

I thought Monday Night Football looked great. I watched it in 480p cropped. It blew away anything I have seen from Faux-"DT" Faux should bow their heads in shame over their poor signal quality. The proof was last night, in my opinion.

Starving

P.S. Faux-"DT" had no signal again last night. I guess they couldn't figure out which way to install the 9 volt battery the other day... A team of Faux-6 "engineers" is working 24/7 on the problem I suppose.

[MarkS]

When you say you watched Monday Night Football 480p "cropped", does that mean with black bars on the side? That's what I had and although the picture was great I was disappointed it wasn't 16x9.
I've also noticed that Faux 6 has been MIA the last two nights.

[Tom Snyder]

The picture was OK, but no great shakes. Cloesups were pretty sharp, but the field shots are like watching through waxed paper in comparison to CBS anmd HDNet College Football. If this is as good as Faux "Enhanced Defintion Widescreen" is, it's a sad, sad, commentary on the future of NFC NFL. http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/ubb/frown.gif

[bigcheeshead]

Nooo, First HideF packers game and I miss it. Instead I had to settle for the real thing. http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/ubb/smile.gif
I guess I'll just have to wait till next Monday.

[Gregg Lengling]

You DID NOT miss the Pack in HighDef (you were there, no I mean), it was just a 480p upconvert.


------------------
Gregg R. Lengling
RCA P61310 61" 16x9
HiDTV Pro 2 computer reciever card
glengling@ameritech.net

[StarvingForHDTV]

480p cropped does not have black sidebars, it fills the 16:9 screen (with the Sony HD-200 set top box). Yes it was MUCH better than Faux-DT Packer games (as far as image quality) in my opinion. I know it was not high definition, and of course the picture quality did not come close to CBS college football in true HD. It did however blow away the Faux-DT, and I thought the game looked acceptable to me in 480p (of course I would much rather have 1080i or 720p though).

I'm looking forward to next season's Monday Night Football. Hopefully we will get a couple of Packer games that way. The down side is after watching a game in true HD at ABC it will be extremely difficult to watch the other games on Faux. Is Faux's NFL contract ending soon, or is the future truly doomed?

Starving

[Greg Oman]

Well, I was planning to watch on WISN-DT, and while the picture was good, it was 4:3 for me. Interestingly though, the sound locked in as DD, however it really didn't matter much. Then I looked at WKOW out of Madison and it was 16:9, but standard pro logic. If it wasn't the Packers, I would have lived with the minor pixelization I was getting.

In the end, I watched the local pass through off my dish.

I certainly agree-- It's going to be hard to watch NFL games on Fox. I think even ESPN will be doing some HD, I forget if the Sunday night game of the week will be HD.

Greg O.

[MarkS]

It was 4:3 for me too. Wonder why some are recieving it in 16:9 but not all of us? I have a DTC-100 and I get all of the other widescreen and HD transmissions in 16:9.

I appreciate any input on this as I'm a relative newbie to HD.

Mark

[Tom Snyder]

ABC hasn't done MNF in 16:9 HD for a couple years now, and it isn't in HD or 16:9 SD this year either.

If it was in 16:9, then the station was stretching it, something I've heard that a few stations have done.

[StarvingForHDTV]

I hope I didn't confuse anyone. The football game was sent to me as 720p with a 4:3 picture surrounded by built in black bars on the sides. I had my set top box convert the 720p signal to 480p, and crop the black sidebars from my view. That way the image filled my 16:9 screen.

Starving

[Blitzman]

Will we ever see the NFL in HD?? I can't believe that I see horse races, I see College Football, I see the NHL, I see MLB, I see the olympics in HD, but the biggest sport in the US, the NFL is not in HD. I know it was it was in HD a few years back(MNF), but how many HD sets were out there then? WHERES THE NFL
Should I blame the networks or the NFL? I just do not understand?

[Gregg Lengling]

Actually you can blame anyone you want...but the truth of the matter is the availability of HD Production Trucks and equipment. You have over a dozen NFL games each weekend......there just aren't that many HD production trucks/trailers/cameras ect owned by the networks yet! When the US Open Golf was on CBS in HD, there was a lot of SD mixed in because they didn't have the cameras and facilities to handle the number of shots they had to accomplish.

As my grandmother used to say, all good things take time, but they come in time.
Now Bad things can come quicker accordingly we're talking about Fox's enhanced widescreen, which is 16:9 480p. The cameras all the crews are using for SD are capable of providing 480p (they actually have over 500 lines of res.) and most of them already are set up for different aspect ratios, so I don't know why Fox isn't doing it yet.

But as Tim C. says, this is just experimental.


------------------
Gregg R. Lengling
RCA P61310 61" 16x9
HiDTV Pro 2 computer reciever card
glengling@ameritech.net

[mcq]

I recorded some of the MNF Packer game from 34-1, (because I was in the bar watching, of course.) I just looked at it this morning.... Oh my gawsh, it was amazing. Better than DVD quality. I cannot wait till next year.



[This message has been edited by mcq (edited 11-07-2002).]

[Tom Snyder]

To add to the confusion. This from a post at AVS:

After reading this post called our local abc station Wisn in Milwaukee, talked to programming director and he said ABC might have Monday Night Football for the last 2 or 3 games of the season. Nothing in concrete yet. They just started HD broadcast Nov 1. What shocked me is that they had not one screw up yet. Our local NBC station WTMJ has been in HD for a 1.5 years forgot to flip the switch last night for Law and order. Called them said it was not on there log but would check.

<a href=http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=187761>Entire Thread</a>

[P a u l]

mcq how did you record it? Coax out of your STB or TV, which ever you have, into the vcr?