Confusion appears to be present with 1-1, 58, 58-1 etc

[ReesR]

Bigcheesehead had a post just a couple down from this one where he shared his frustration over channel numbers for what defines digital channel 58. This topic was started to share with him and others that he is not the only one who finds it confusing.

Yes, Channel 58 decided to not conform to normal PSIP data usage protocol. That is where the virtual channel number is defined by the tv station. In other words, part of the digital signal contains the channel number you need to use to change to a recognized equivalent analog channel such as 4,6,10,12 etc. In this case Channel 58 decided to use channel 1-1 to reference Channel 58. Cool? It is not and here is why.

My Sony receiver (which has a built in tuner) won't even see them when I do a channel scan because it always starts at channel 2 then goes up from there. I always have to manually enter 1-1 each time I want to watch them. Try explaining that to your wife sometime after spending big bucks. Most receivers are like that. Including my new Satellite/OTA receiver.

Bigcheesehead, to add to your confusion, your satellite receiver defines 58-1 through 58-5 because that is what Directv's programming guide information is giving to you. That is not coming from the local station. That is coming from Directv. That makes for even more confusion at the hands of Channel 58's decision to not conform. By the way, my Samsung HD satellite receiver handles it the same way. They show it as channel 58-1 through 58-5 the same way it shows it for you.

I just wish they would just go back to being normal. Aren't they proud of their channel number? They certainly promote channel 58 enough but interestingly don't promote channel 1-1 very much, if at all. How's that for a formula for confusion?

There will come a time when high definition programming becomes the norm that having to deal with issues like this will hurt them. But currently they think they have this gawd awful edge because of CBS which makes them think we think of them being the number "1"(-1) channel. Times will change eventually. The old tv system had protocols which have evolved into a mature system. However, currently we now have to deal with stations which think it is cute to use the new technology this way.

I would be interested in hearing how many here have similar issues of confusion in your family concerning this.

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Rees Roberts
Racine, WI
reesr@wi.net

HDTV Receiver: Sony KD-34XBR2 16X9
Bi-directional AntennaCraft VHF Yagi Model #2260P
+
2 Winegard PR9022 UHF yagi's pointing N & S
Antennas at about 30 feet
Samsung SIR-TS160 HD Directv receiver

[This message has been edited by ReesR (edited 10-26-2002).]

[This message has been edited by ReesR (edited 10-27-2002).]

[Joseph S]

I basically had to beg the HiPix opensource authors to give me channel 1 back. It remains a major issue with the TitanTV scheduling as well because they've been flipping between assigning the record to 46.1,58.1,and 1.1.

I too wish they would either stick with 46 or choose a number not in use >1. It would solve a great many problems I've had with 1.1-1.3 being unrecognized.

[Gregg Lengling]

58 decided to set up their PSIP data to show channel for 2 simple reasons. #1 it would list them as the first channel. 2nd when the FCC ends analogue transmissions the channels above 50 will no longer be TV but will be wireless communications. So in 2005/6/7 they would have to change their channel number anyway so why not do it now. I have no problem with either my DTC100 or HiDTV Pro 2.0 mapping any of the channels correctly..even channel 34 maps as channel 34-1..however without the PSIP setup right they have no callsign information and don't have the ability to tell my system that they are affiliated with channel 12.


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Gregg R. Lengling
RCA P61310 61" 16x9
HiDTV Pro 2 computer reciever card
glengling@ameritech.net

[ReesR]

Gregg:

I know why they did it. I merely was pointing out the ramifications of confusion it has created. I asked if family members found it confusing? It is part of the big picture which is making it harder for people...not easier.

Further, I was pointing out that they are NOT the first channel. The manufacturers start with channel 2 not 1. And to create confusion at the beginning of the learning curve of HDTV when there would be a alot of people just trying to digest more than channels I believe is a crime. It should be made easier not more difficult. Heck, my wife uses the up/down channel button to surf. Guess what? 58 never shows up. Why wouldn't it be in 58's best interest to react to that info?

I will give channel 12 more time to get their PSIP info straightened out before coming to any conclusions. They are just getting up and running. But 58 has been around awhile in digital.

Let's hear from new users and/or old timers wives to get some other viewpoints.

[JohnRacine]

Hi Rees,

My Toshiba DST3000 displays channel 58 digital as 1-1, but I can use the channel up/down buttons to tune it in. I don't have to make a direct entry like you apparently do. The logo in the upper left hand corner says "CBS58HD 1-1". So, I don't have the same problem that you have. On a side note, for WGN out of Chicago, my STB maps it as "WGN DT 9-1" which is fine, but it also shows up as "WGN WB 75-1", even though it's the exact same station. So, when I'm surfing using the channel up/down buttons, WGN comes up twice. I cannot delete 75-1 in the menu because that menu does not display channels any higher than 69. I can delete any channels that I don't want to watch below 69 (such as 10-2, 3, etc.). This problem only exists with WGN out of Chicago so it's not a big deal.

[StarvingForHDTV]

I find it hard to understand their logic on this as well. 1.1 or 46.1 have about the same level of "branding" to me. 58.1 would have been a logical choice in my mind. The real branding comes from the network though, in my opinion. The little translucent logo in the bottom right hand corner during the show tells me I'm watching CBS more than remembering what channel number I happen to be on at the time.

But even then, I'm most likely to watch something if it is in true high definition, so whichever channel has a true HD program on gets my viewing time. If/when there are two channels with HD programming on at the same time, the decision comes down to content. I don't care what network it is, as long as it's HD and hopefully entertaining as well.

My two cents,

Starving

P.S. On the Sony HD200 box, I can tune with up/down channel through the digital stations like this. Up 1.1,1.2,1.3,4.1,6.1,10.1,10.2,10.3,10.4,10.5,22.1, 34.1 If I keep pressing up it goes to analog 18 then analog 24 then back to 1.1 Pressing down channel is the reverse sequence. I have no problem really with having CBS mapped to 1.1 I suppose.

[Ron Pollitt]

On my Sensory Science OTA digital receiver, CBS shows up as :

Ch1-1 CBS58HD UHF46
CH1-2 WMLW41 UHF46
CH1-3 TElE63 UHF46

My wife likes it that way because it shows the network affiliation so she doesn't have to remember which channel is CBS. Unfortunately, ABC shows up as:

Ch34-P1 UHF34

On the same menu.
This box has a favorites menu feature which allows me the capability to capture all the digital stations on one menu to advoid the antalog clutter when I channel up and down the favorites list. I have a guide button that I can press to see what is playing the rest of the night on a paticular station. Unfortunately, only one or two stations are transmitting that information right now.
On a side note I bought this box on eBay during a liquidation of the Sensory Corp's. HDTV boxes for around $230 dollars, so it doesn't have to cost a lot to go HDTV.
Ron


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[Greg Oman]

Is it just me, or is 58 MIA? Couldn't find King of Queens at 7, will look for a signal again now. http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/ubb/confused.gif

Greg O.

[Frank Childress]

Greg,

It's not just you. I've got a solid 98% signal but nothing to see. Last time this happened 58 had a misconfigured PSIP data stream.

Frank

[Gregg Lengling]

This has happened before do a search on this site, I think there is a phone number you can call so an engineer can reboot it.


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Gregg R. Lengling
RCA P61310 61" 16x9
HiDTV Pro 2 computer reciever card
glengling@ameritech.net

[Frank Childress]

Well if anyone finds a number I'll be glad to call. I've searched every way I can think of with no luck.

Frank

[Gregg Lengling]

Well then look them up in the phone book and find a number that answers and ask to speak to an engineer and tell them 1-1 is off the air......
I'd do it but I'm tied up here.


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Gregg R. Lengling
RCA P61310 61" 16x9
HiDTV Pro 2 computer reciever card
glengling@ameritech.net

[mcq]

That's wierd... I get 1-1 on the HiDTV , but not the DTC-100!?

Excellant, I wanted to record it anyway...Good football game in crisp digital!!!!!

[Gregg Lengling]

Yeah at first I had a black screen on the HiDTV but then I tried 1-2 and it worked, went back to 1-1 and everythings okay. Tried it on the RCA and nothing...tried 1-1, 1-2 and everytime it just goes back to 1-1 and a black screen.


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Gregg R. Lengling
RCA P61310 61" 16x9
HiDTV Pro 2 computer reciever card
glengling@ameritech.net

[ReesR]

Now I'm confused. Is there confusion out there? http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Pat]

Samsung SIR-T150: no problems noted.

[GS kid]

I have the Samsung T-151. I had that problem with 1-1 over the weekend (Sunday I think). Signal levels normal but no picture. I guess the PSIP data problem bothers the T-151 just like it did my old DTC-100. Every now and then 1-1 goes AWOL on my channel list. By entering 1-1 directly, it seems to add it back to the list again with no more problems. It doesn't happen often, but is a weird quirk. I also notice that it's harder to get in PBS with it as well. When I use my Radio Shack HD antenna in Helix mode (best for digital broadcasts) it's signal level pops between full signal level and no signal level pretty often , but comes in fine when switched to the rabbit-ears. With my DTC-100, the Helix antenna was better then rabbit-ears for this channel. CBS is about the same with either STB. It has good days and bad days. Everything else is fine.
As for mention of no channels being over 50 in the future, I say this. No REAL channels over 50. With PSIP data, stations can MAP the stations anywhere on your STB's channel list. Real 46 is mapped 1.1-3, 28 is mapped 4.1, 8 is mapped 10.1-5, etc. Mapping should give CBS-58 no problem putting it as 58.1 on your STB channel list. They should do that soon before people get confused in the future.---- GS kid

[ReesR]

I originally wrote the following after Tom Synder said in another topic:

They do have a conundrum, though. They are 58, but, unlike the other channels, they won't be able to keep it when the analog spectrum goes away.
Unfortunately, with TV, I think the channel number may be even more important than the call letters. Like it or not, CBS58 will be faced with having to change their brand.

It's complicated by the fact that VHF channels get more respect than UHF channels. SO if you're Jim Hall... what do you do? Become CBS46? Hardly.

To acheive parity you figure out a way to have an apparent VHF channel. To achieve superiority you become #1. If Time Warner gives him that cable channel, he scores a major coup.

In the long run, it's brilliant. In the short term, it's confusing.

==============================

I then wrote this:


I appreciate the "perceived" conundrum. But look it this way just for a second:
When Channel 6 was CBS I was appauled when they dropped it. Why? Because I felt they had made a huge mistake. Then when ch 58 picked it up, I felt like it was their gain.

CONTENT is what is important. NOT channel branding. My viewing habits went along with the content change. Channel 6 used to get my viewing while 58 now does. Not because they are 58 but because they have the content I want to view.

Therefore, the conundrum is a perceived one. It basically says that if we do an end run around the channel number issue they will win by having this elusive #1 channel. To me this is pure marketing hype. I go to 58 because they are CBS in this market. Pure and simple. For those who want content on ch6 then the same applies. My local viewing of news is pretty much divided between all the local stations. None of the stations have a lock on local news in the Milwaukee market, IMHO.

I simply want Jim Hall to look at the possiblity that regular folk don't care what number on the dial they are on. It's the content. It makes no difference anymore whether the content is on VHF, UHF, Satellite, or laser receiver. Whether they are on Channel 1, 5, A, B, EE, XYZ or 58, it makes absolutely no difference. I will, once I know where the content is seek out the programs at whatever channel they are on.

That was the message I was trying to get across. Whether they still have 58 after the analog channels goes away still does not make any difference at all. This is 1980's or 90's branding mentality. I am sick of it. It also goes to the heart of the logo issue as well. People are getting angry about it. If people are smart enough to switch to the channel that gives them what they want they certainly don't need something on the screen to remind them that they succeeded for the duration of the program. How would you like it if your phone call was interupted by voice telling you what phone number you were connected to while trying to enjoy the phone conversation? Same thing. I find both would be very disturbing.

The normal protocol currently says to use the same channel number plus an added "-1" or "-2" etc to obtain the digital channel. Ch 58 should use it. To use some old cable idea is just not a good one at the very entry point that people are trying to understand digital television concepts. K.I.S.S. Keep it simple stupid. That is something that most will agree is good policy.

And having different channel numbers to define the same station on your tv or set top box or recorder or tv guild is just bad policy.


=================


I moved this to here because it was hinted that I was not focusing on the main subject matter. Hopefully, this will retain the intent of this topic.


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Rees Roberts
Racine, WI
reesr@wi.net

HDTV Receiver: Sony KD-34XBR2 16X9
Bi-directional AntennaCraft VHF Yagi Model #2260P
+
2 Winegard PR9022 UHF yagi's pointing N & S
Antennas at about 30 feet
Samsung SIR-TS160 HD Directv receiver

[ReesR]

I also wrote the following in that same topic:

Ok folks:

I had originally written a piece (again) about how 58 was creating confusion in the marketplace with their decision to map themselves to channel 1-1. I will let you decide if you want to read those comments down below this or just stop at the end of this half.

I think I am slowly coming to the conclusion that competition will take care of everything. Jim Hall certainly won't listen to me or others here. So, I now declare the competition started. The three major networks are now on air in the Milwaukee market. So, let's see if the 1-1 channel confusion ultimately creates problems in the marketplace.

We "experimenters" obviously have learned how to deal with it. But I predict mucho problems with general users.
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and so goes the confusion over 58. Is it Thursday yet?


Confused by that comment? It makes just as much sense as all this confusion about 58.

My Sony receiver won't scan digital channel 1, my Sat box guide maps digital 58 as 58-1 instead of 1.1, TV Guides on the Internet can't agree what channel 58 is on for digital. And I have to manually tune 1-1 to get 58 digital. Titan's guide has even used 46. Then add to all this confusion what Time Warner Cable will do.

Jim Hall, please fix this by using standard mapping. It will be alot easier for people who are familiar with digital years from now to deal with one channel change than forcing people who are not now familiar with digital to have to deal with it during their learning curve about HDTV.


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Rees Roberts
Racine, WI
reesr@wi.net

HDTV Receiver: Sony KD-34XBR2 16X9
Bi-directional AntennaCraft VHF Yagi Model #2260P
+
2 Winegard PR9022 UHF yagi's pointing N & S
Antennas at about 30 feet
Samsung SIR-TS160 HD Directv receiver