Channel 12 Signal Strength

[mr_yeti]

I've been putting off buying an HDTV receiver, mostly because of cost and the lack of any real choices when it comes to HD programming. I am a bit of a sports junkie, so, needless to say, I'm quite excited about ABC's recent announcement regarding Super Bowl, NBA Finals, NHL Finals, and next season's MNF (Madden in HD! Now you can hear him not talk about football in 5.1!) being broadcast in HD. Really, this was the decision-maker for me. My question is this - will Channel 12 have sufficient signal strength to reach me in Port Washington, or is it a directional signal whose blind spot I'll be in? Thanks for your help.

[ReesR]

From what we have been able to gather so far Ch 12 will be running high power. Therefore, you should be able to receive them if you can also receive their analog signal. Stay tuned.

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Rees Roberts
Racine, WI
reesr@wi.net

HDTV Receiver: Sony KD-34XBR2
Bi-directional Yagi Antenna at 30 feet

[mr_yeti]

Thanks a lot. Now all I need to do is find a good SAT/OTA receiver for a reasonable price, buy it by the middle of january, and enjoy.

[wxndave]

From what I can see Ch 12 has side mounted the antenna at 900 feet. You may have problems if you are at lake level. If you get channel 41 or 63 now you should get ch 12 digital. The FCC shows them as having Special Temporary Authority to run lower power than there license. They will be running 570 KW ERP instead of 833KW ERP.

Most digital OTA boxes work with a much lower signal. I did a test and found out that you can run a box down -30db compared to a analog signal that starts to look pretty bad at -10 and is next to nothing at -30. I did hower started to get break ups after that point.

Dave

Originally posted by mr_yeti:
I've been putting off buying an HDTV receiver, mostly because of cost and the lack of any real choices when it comes to HD programming. I am a bit of a sports junkie, so, needless to say, I'm quite excited about ABC's recent announcement regarding Super Bowl, NBA Finals, NHL Finals, and next season's MNF (Madden in HD! Now you can hear him not talk about football in 5.1!) being broadcast in HD. Really, this was the decision-maker for me. My question is this - will Channel 12 have sufficient signal strength to reach me in Port Washington, or is it a directional signal whose blind spot I'll be in? Thanks for your help.

[mcq]

41 or 63... Uh Oh I get neither very well, and I live in the city limits. I wonder if the highest spot in Milwaukee (20th and Bolivar) gets in my way (27th and College.)

[John L]

Almost anyday now WISN-DT should be testing, assuming the target date for full DTV operation is the 15th?

[veyj]

mcq - If height is a problem, why don't you run some cable and mount your antenna on the Pick N' Save flag. http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[mr_yeti]

Thanks for all of the great input. This board is a wonderful resource for those of us with questions about getting into HD in the Milwaukee area. I guess I'll just have to wait and see what happens with this. What exactly are the advantages to Channel 12 of running a low-powered signal, and why would they go through the trouble of getting a waiver from the FCC to do so? Do they want to avoid having their signal reach the most possible viewers? I realize that the number of people who are equipped to enjoy HD is limited, but they're going to end up swithcing anyway, right? I suppose it's foolish to attempt to apply logic to the corporate decision-making process.

I don't even have a receiver yet, and I'm already frustrated by the foot-dragging that I read about on this board.

I will be very upset if I cannot receive the SuperB owl broadcast at my home. I was very much looking forward to having my first HD SuperB owl party next January.

[Gregg Lengling]

The low power scenario is something a lot of stations are going to until their is a larger viewing audience. There is the 6 to 7 figure cost for the power amplifier to consider plus the monthly electrical costs that run in the thousands of dollars. So I guess I can't fault their business logic as they aren't reaching enough viewers to get advertisers to foot the bill. Even though they got the spectrum for free,they still have a 7 figure investment in equipment and then on going maintance and utility costs.


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Gregg R. Lengling
RCA P61310 61" 16x9
glengling@ameritech.net

[ReesR]

The 570kw (570,000 watts) of power that WISN will be running instead of the normal 833,000 watts is NOT low power in comparison to Ch 58's 11,000 watts or Ch 6's 800 watts of power. I suspect you will not have any problems with ch 12 reception in digital.

Also, as you may have already concluded there are two points of view concerning whether or not you want to be sympathetic to those stations running really low power.

I have concluded that there is NOT a chicken and egg situation. It has crystalized in my mind that if there is something excellent to watch, people will buy into it. The stance which says "but there aren't enough people watching to justify the expense" is pure hog wash in my opinion. They are only hurting themselves. By dragging their feet, the time to digital profitability is merely extended into the future.

Some have expressed why I have this conclusion. Well, reading history is one reason. Remember the luddites?

If not please see:
http://carbon.cudenver.edu/~mryder/itc_data/luddite.html

But I doubt you will have to re-locate your Super Bowl party. In all likelyhood, you will be really happy with the results.

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Rees Roberts
Racine, WI
reesr@wi.net

HDTV Receiver: Sony KD-34XBR2
Bi-directional Yagi Antenna at 30 feet

[This message has been edited by ReesR (edited 10-02-2002).]

[mr_yeti]

Ok, I guess that makes sense. But that doesn't mean I have to like it http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

As you mentioned, though, they do get the license to use public property for free, and other channels have been broadcasting for a while now. It's unfortunate that a mandate from the federal government has absolutely no effect on at least a somewhat uniform implementation of "new" technology.

[mr_yeti]

I must say that I am pleased with both the fact that WISN is not broadcasting an inordinately low-power signal and the mention of the Luddites in the same post. Thanks again for the useful and encouraging information.

I, for one, agree that if quality programming exists in the HD format, people will be more likely to make the (increasingly smaller) investment it takes to view such programming. I am not a wealthy man, but I own an HD-capable set, and I know that several of my friends are thinking about purchasing one as well after seeing mine in action. And they've only seen DVDs. Wait until they see the HD display capabilities.

I can use my own purchase of a DVD player to illustrate this point. I knew that eventually, I would make the switch, but I didn't want to do it before I knew I could watch pretty much any movie on DVD that I could on VHS. During my frequent trips to a local electronics store, I kept an eye on the rapidly increasing DVD selection. When it got large enough, I bought the DVD player.

[ReesR]

You are correct!

As the saying goes:

Build it and they will come.

or in this case...

Put that signal out there so people can receive it and they will buy into it.

It's the same thing.

Now go out and get that set top box. Enjoy it and report back in triplicate. hehe Oh, and yes tell all your friends about it. It really is worthwhile.

psst...me thinks that (again) the stations don't know what kind of gold mine they are (again) sitting on.

Cheers

[Gregg Lengling]

actually I did backwards to you. My wife bought me the set (61") with integrated ATSC and Directv receivers. The second day I had it I tried to watch a VHS tape, 30 minutes later I was at the store buying a progressive scan DVD player and DVD's. Once you've seen HD you can't go back, some of the upconverted 480p isn't too bad, but it's not 1080i or even the quality of a 480p DVD.


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Gregg R. Lengling
RCA P61310 61" 16x9
glengling@ameritech.net

[mr_yeti]

I'm probably going to hold off until after the holidays to buy the box, because of holiday-related expenses. My goal is to have it in time to watch the Super Bowl.

This has a nice upside in that, since I am in no hurry to get the box, I can shop carefully and get ideas from other users as to which box to buy. I don't really feel I need anything other than OTA reception for right now, and if I do decide to switch in the future, well, that's what eBay is for.

I realize that this probably isn't the right forum for this question, but can anyone recommend a box in the <$500 range? I'm not concerned with getting a "third-generation" box or anything like that, and I really have no need for DVI or Firewire.

[Tom Weeden]

Originally posted by lummox:
There is the 6 to 7 figure cost for the power amplifier to consider plus the monthly electrical costs that run in the thousands of dollars. So I guess I can't fault their business logic as they aren't reaching enough viewers to get advertisers to foot the bill. Even though they got the spectrum for free,they still have a 7 figure investment in equipment and then on going maintance and utility costs.


Good post!

The 7-figure investment was also mandated. (WMTV-DT was actually in the high 6-figure area.) I have no idea how small rural stations will make this digital transition work. Our station is running "low" power also due to tower loading constraints, although we're "only" 5 dB below the FCC-authorized power. My guess is that as number of digital viewers hits a certain level, the analog and digital channels will be swapped, the analog station goes low power and is eventually shut off.

As far as the concept of "getting the spectrum for free" goes, I'm all for it. From about 1920 through 1985-ish, anyone from the small-town radio station to the taxi company using two-way radios to the original analog cell phone systems wanting to use the radio spectrum got licensed to use it "for free" as long as they met the licensing requirements. For broadcasters that means providing service "in the public interest, convenience, and necessity."

Then someone came up with the goofy idea of the US government *selling* electromagnetic spectrum to raise money to balance the budget, and now the concept is entrenched. And some poor spectrum management decisions are being made, as the money issue clouds good engineering sense.

I'm not a big fan of conglommo corporations, and spectrum auctions would seem to favor those with the cash and lock out entrepreneurs and mom-and-pop operations.

The FCC should either keep all frequencies free, or they should also sell rights to use cordless phone frequencies and garage door openers. That'll raise a few more bucks.

My opinions only...not those of my employer.

--Tom

[Todd Wiedemann]

How 'bout this, gang ...

Today is the 6th of October, 9 days away from WISN ramping up the digital signal.

Wouldn't it be nice if they 'tested' their new equipment, let's say, tomorrow night around 8pm for us 'hobbyists' in their audience ?

Sure would give them some positive karma, at least around here ! http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif

[Gregg Lengling]

I've got my HiDTV board programmed to check for a signal every hour and log the results...I'm just waiting for a signal...BTW what about Faux 6. They've been MIA for most of last week and still not there, I've got a scan going for that also.


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Gregg R. Lengling
RCA P61310 61" 16x9
glengling@ameritech.net

[ReesR]

neat feature... we all look forward hearing any news.

[Todd Wiedemann]

That's pretty cool, Gregg.

You will let us know if anything hits, right ?? http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/ubb/wink.gif

Do we have any contact info for WISN ??

[Gregg Lengling]

It's not a feature of the board, it's a program I wrote to interact with the board and tune the desired channel and log signal strength. It will send an alarm tone to my speakers if it gets a signal over 30....noise level is basically 9, lock level is around 50.
I'll let everyone know when I get a hit.


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Gregg R. Lengling
RCA P61310 61" 16x9
glengling@ameritech.net

[Joseph S]

They've been MIA for most of last week and still not there, I've got a scan going for that also.



They told me they were getting a new transmitter in the "next two weeks" to replace the one that was determined "broken" on 5/1/02. Hopefuly, this will solve the major lack of signal issues.

[Gregg Lengling]

8 days to go and still no signal on 33....oops...don't they know how long it takes to make that stuff work.....weren't they watching when 10,4,58 put theirs on...or are they thinking it'll work right out of the box.


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Gregg R. Lengling
RCA P61310 61" 16x9
glengling@ameritech.net

[Gregg Lengling]

4 days to go and there is a signal on my spectrum analyzer at the shop on WISN-DT's frequency. No data yet, just a narrow band carrier...probably just warming up the transmitter and haven't added the PSIP data yet to expand the signal. But anyhow at least this is good news. The bad news is the signal strength isn't very good. My shop is only a couple miles from their tower.

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Gregg R. Lengling
RCA P61310 61" 16x9
glengling@ameritech.net

[mr_yeti]

Wow! This has become quite the thread. I'm still holding off on buying the box, but i will keep my eye open on this thread for any new info regarding signal strength. Thanks to all of you for the great and continuing information. I know where to turn for help when I finally take the HD plunge.

[Gregg Lengling]

Well full digital signal there on the spectrum analyzer now...have to get home after noon and look on the receiver and see what they're transmitting.

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Gregg R. Lengling
RCA P61310 61" 16x9
glengling@ameritech.net

[Todd Wiedemann]

Doggone it !!

Just on the day we're having a chili "cook-off" here at the office and I can't go home and check !!

Michelle entered her chili in the competition. http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/ubb/cool.gif

[Gregg Lengling]

I'm home and have a signal strength of 90 but no picture yet....PSIP data not available.

[ReesR]

Nothing showing on my system here yet.

Todd: Maybe if Michelle's chili wins you can take the rest of the day off. (grin)

[Todd Wiedemann]

Heh. I would like that today.

Not a winner, unfortunately. More than likely just 'un-refined pallates' http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/ubb/wink.gif

Anyone else scanning 'ole 34 ??

[Tom Snyder]

Wife was home to let the dog out, and I just called her to have her test it... said 34 is locked in but no picture...

Hey, and guess what else... Newsflash: 33 shows "Weak signal!"

[Gregg Lengling]

On my PC the card shows a signal strength even if the PSIP info isn't there and I've got over 90 on signal strength.,so when they get the data going it'' be good.

[Gregg Lengling]

Of course now that WISN-DT's transmitter is on the air, I can no longer receive flea power Fox...on the adjacent channel..WTMJ always decreased the signal for Fox when they went on air..but with ISN right next door frequency wise...say goodbye to Fox...not that there was anything worth watching.


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Gregg R. Lengling
RCA P61310 61" 16x9
glengling@ameritech.net

[Joseph S]

I've got the HiPix sensing signal at ATSC 34, but since their is no actual aud/vid it doesn't show up in the antenna aimer for signal strength. I can't even get a signal sense on 33, if that means anything. http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/ubb/wink.gif

I've got call Sun. It sure would be nice to return to a HiDef recording of Alias and The Practice Monday. Unfortunately, if they don't put the signal up until Sunday I'm out of luck b/c I won't be able to schedule for a non-existant channel.

[borghe]

I Am not getting anything from 34 currently. Can anyone here verify that there is still a signal there?

[Steely]

I too have a HiPix here in Waukesha, but can't pickup 34 yet. Here's something weird, about two weeks ago on Sunday I was able to get a picture on channel 13.1(39) WZZM-HD. It was not in HiDef, but it was ABC. I looked it up and WZZM-DT is ABC in Grand Rapids, MI. Anybody else see this?

Dan.

[tschinner]

I live along the lake and periodically get WZZM. So far that is the only Grand Rapids Channel I have been able to receive.

[Steely]

Any other HiPix users out there able to get a picture on 34.1 yet? I'm in Waukesha and I was able to get a really weak signal last night, but could not lock in on a picture. I could see that they were running some HD test material. I hope they're just not up to full power yet.

[Gregg Lengling]

I have the HiDTV card and a DTC100 and on both the signal is more than 90...no problems here in Cedarburg...They have an authorization to run about half power and it's pretty good.


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Gregg R. Lengling
RCA P61310 61" 16x9
glengling@ameritech.net

[mcq]

This is not funny anymore... WHERE IS WISN-HDTV ?????????

[Joseph S]

This is not funny anymore... WHERE IS WISN-HDTV ?????????

After NYPD Blue until before Alias. They're building a super logo bug to obliterate the entire screen with a non transparent 12.

http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Todd Wiedemann]

No one scanning ? 34-1 is up as of 10-23-02 16:58.

I'm watching !! http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/ubb/wink.gif

[ReesR]

I see it. I see it. Whooo hoooo!!

PSIP info appears to be missing as it wont register on my Sony. I must manually enter 34-1.

I had checked it at noon but saw nothing then. You win Todd. You were the first official viewer. (grin)

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Rees Roberts
Racine, WI
reesr@wi.net

HDTV Receiver: Sony KD-34XBR2 16X9
Bi-directional AntennaCraft VHF Yagi Model #2260P
+
2 Winegard PR9022 UHF yagi's pointing N & S
Antennas at about 30 feet
Samsung SIR-TS160 HD Directv receiver

[Todd Wiedemann]

Do I get a T-shirt ?

"WISN-DT's First Official Viewer !"

I can hear the people I pass at Summerfest ...

"huh ?"

http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Todd Wiedemann]

Guys !

'My Wife and Kids' is on WISN right now with FULL ABC HD PASS-THROUGH !!!

Tune in !!!

Yee haw !

[Steely]

I'm getting a nice picture with my HiPix here is Waukesha. This is great. Can't wait for the Superbowl!

Dan.

[Tom Snyder]

Too early/optimistic/ill-advised to start planning a Superbowl party?

[StarvingForHDTV]

My experience with ABC-DT:

I found varying signal strengths last night, but all of them were strong enough to not cause dropouts or pixelation. There was no drop in Faux's signal when ABC-DT was on the air.

Sound quality was superior to the other networks. Most notably during "MDs" they used the rear surround channels quite nicely I thought. Also during the intro theme to "George Lopez Show" which had a Santana song I think, that sounded very good. It's too bad the other networks are not sending out the Dolby Digital 5.1 audio signal as well.

My RPTV does not natively display the 720p signal, so I had the Sony convert it to 1080i. I thought the picture quality was great.

Two thumbs up on ABC-DT for me http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/ubb/smile.gif

Starving (not as hungry these days)

P.S. I find myself watching quite a bit more HDTV than I did regular definition analog TV. So I spend more hours viewing these days. Maybe that can contribute to the TV stations profits in the future. Also the analog audio is better with the Sony which sends it to me as PCM digital audio. It's still not as good as the digital stations, but it is better than my prior analog audio signals.

[Ron Pollitt]

I'm happy to report that 34-1 was loud and clear last night in Fontana, WI. Beautiful picture and sound. They must be using full power. We can now receive ABC, NBC, and CBS from Milwaukee consistently out here. Only need Fox and PBS.
Ron
Sensory Science HDT100 STB
NEC 42" Plasma Monitor
Lance 4-bowtie UHF Antenna
Channel Master UHF Preamp-775
Channel Master Rotor
Charter Cable(no HDTV feeds)

[Gregg Lengling]

Actually if you look back in past posts you will find that they are licensed to run a little less than 1/2 power for right now.


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Gregg R. Lengling
RCA P61310 61" 16x9
glengling@ameritech.net

[Pat]

Ron, I believe you should be able to get PBS. They're at full power -- just not much content. Lately, they've been running some demo material quite a bit.